Welcome to the defender podcast, a resource to help mobilize and equip the body of Christ to manifest the gospel to orphans and vulnerable children. This podcast is a ministry of Lifeline Children Services, and I'm your host, Herbie Newell.

Today is Wednesday, September 4, 2024. I'm Rick Morton, and this is the Defender Podcast. Well, today, we have an opportunity to be able to sit down with Sandra Flash, who is a friend to Lifeline and also a mom of 8. 5 of her children came home through adoption, and we're going to talk a little bit about her family. We're also gonna talk a little bit about the challenges that her children have experienced with fetal alcohol spectrum disorder or FASD as it's commonly known.

Sandra is an advocate for children with fetal alcohol spectrum disorder. She is a trusted resource for a lot of parents who are parenting children who have fetal alcohol spectrum disorder and are affected by the prenatal use of alcohol by their their birth parents. Sandra is the co founder of Justice For Orphans, which is a non profit ministry that supports orphans and foster children. She hosts the adoption and foster care journey podcast, which I would commend to you and say if you're not, currently subscribed, that's a it's a great podcast for you, to listen to. She also is the author of of the book Orphans No More, A Journey Back to the Father, in which she tells her family story and her spiritual journey as an adoptive parent.

Sandra and her husband Wayne live in upstate New York. They continue to parent their teenage sons and, they are like we are enjoying time with their grandchildren. And so we're really excited about having Sandra on the podcast. But before we get there, we wanna remind you about, Lifeline's education portal and, the incredible resource that's available to you through our ministry here at Lifeline Children's Services. Lifeline's education portal offers a wide range of online interactive courses designed to support families, caregivers, and church leaders, as you navigate the challenges of adoption, foster care and caring for vulnerable children.

For those looking to learn more about FASD, our topic today, we offer courses like FASD 101 and FASD 102. Each course offers engaging videos, interactive activities, and the chance to connect with a global community of learners. Plus, you'll receive personalized feedback from the course moderators to ensure that you're getting the most out of your experience. If you're ready to be equipped and empowered on your journey, check out Lifeline's education portal or as we call it around here, the LEP. And you can find that at lifelinechild.org/learning, or you can check it out in the show notes to find out more about Lifeline's education portal and about the resources that are available there.

So, without further ado, want to jump into our interview with our friend, Sandra Flash. Well, Sandra, welcome back. We're glad to have you again on the Defender podcast. And it's just an awesome pleasure, as always, to be able to have a chance to have a conversation with you.

It's an honor to be here, Doctor. Rick. I'm grateful for the opportunity.

Well, we, you know, we've talked before about about you, about your ministry and and, you know, talk more generally about all of that. And then, you know, we've talked family and we got into FASD to a degree, but not to the degree that that we want to and what we want to do today. And I think a lot of our conversation I'll just set this up for you as we get going. A lot of our conversation and the reason sort of the motivation for coming back and doing this again was the response we got to our first episode. And so when you and I kind of went off a little bit into FASD in the midst of talking about your book, folks are just really intrigued.

And, of course, I know the depth of a lot more of what you've done. And so, so really excited about about doing this. I think maybe the place to start is if if you could just sort of lay a foundation for us about FASD and what it is and a little bit of what we're even looking at. Because I think there are a lot of families that are dealing with some question mark and they don't know how to put it all together. And it may, in fact, be exposure to alcohol that is the kind of the missing thing that they haven't really put together from their child's past.

So yeah, why don't you jump in there?

Yeah. So FASD, fetal alcohol spectrum disorder, isn't a diagnosis itself, but it's a spectrum. Right? So it's a brain based lifelong physical condition that affects the brain and body of people who were exposed to alcohol in the womb. A lot of people haven't heard of it before.

If you're a, if you're a foster adoptive parent, you probably have maybe some familiarity with it, but, actually, studies have shown there's been some, you know, research. 1 in 20 school age children in the United States have been prenatally exposed. Most are not diagnosed. And that number, that 1 in 20 is higher than autism, which is, I believe, 1 in 35. But it's much less known or understood.

But like I said, most most adoptive and foster parents are dealing with it, kinship caregivers. A lot of times we don't know. I've talked to families and they've said, well, no. We don't know about that, but we have all of this. And then they'll list off a bunch of things and I'll be like, well, those are all symptoms of an FASD.

So you might wanna look into it a little bit. But it is. It's it's prenatal exposure to alcohol, you know, birth mom drinks, and it can be a little bit to a lot. There's no safe amount of alcohol. There's no safe time in a pregnancy.

There's no safe amount of alcohol, and but the alcohol exposure affects the, function and the structure of the developing brain. And and children are born with brains that just work differently, But we also call it an invisible disability because you can't necessarily tell somebody has it by looking at them. There are, you know, characteristic facial features, but that's really a very small percentage of the population of, kids who have an FASD. About 10% of the kids will have the facial features. And if that is present, then they usually have the diagnosis of fetal alcohol syndrome, which my 2 boys have.

But most kids, you know, 90% of the cases don't have the facial features, but they have all of these symptoms that are behavioral. So it looks like, you know, all those difficult things that parents are struggling with, and but they don't understand that it comes from a child who's, you know, not just giving them a hard time, but the child is having a hard time. And, in in that brain difference is is the reason why. But because it's so unknown, parents are struggling and trying to discipline and correct, and that's backfiring because that doesn't necessarily work. So we've got a lot of struggling families out there.

Yeah.

Well, and I think yeah. I think to acknowledging that a lot of the medical community and and a lot of the, you know, the community of psychologists and therapists and and supportive services that families turn to, with autism, and I think, with autism and I think, being in a family where we have a little both of that going on. And so, there has been a ready recognition. And although the medical community is probably not where we want them to be with regard to autism, there's been a great deal more emphasis and a great deal more awareness. We're seeing legislative changes, all kinds of things that are coming around autism that haven't happened with fetal alcohol spectrum disorder.

And I think the part of it is just what you said. It's so hard to pin down. And there's no test. There's no scan. There's no any and really, even the cluster of behaviors and results are kind of elusive at times, even to, you know, sort of get your hands around.

But, you know, maybe maybe we for in that vein, talk a little bit about some of the some of the most maybe difficult challenging, some of the things that that folks might see if prenatal alcohol exposure is part of the cluster of things that are going on with their kiddos.

Sure. I'd love to. So we call them primary symptoms or characteristics. Important to note that not every individual with an FASD will have all of the symptoms, and they can present a little bit differently in each one. But generally, we're talking about dismaturity is very common, and that's when, you know, the child will seem to behave much younger than their biological age.

We think of it as immaturity, but that's not actually accurate. It's just cognitively, developmentally, they're younger, than their biological age. That's common also. Most of these symptoms are common with trauma as well. Mhmm.

And and, you know, all of our kids coming to us through adoptive and foster placements, right, they've experienced some level of trauma, but many of them have probably experienced, prenatal exposure. Sometimes families know, well, there was drugs, but we don't know about alcohol. But the alcohol actually does more and longer lasting damage than drugs, and they typically go hand in hand. Right? Alcohol and drugs.

So we can assume that there is there was alcohol consumption. But, dysmaturity, sensory processing, which a lot of families are also there's other disabilities that present with that. So, you know, sensitivity to touch and sound and light and textures and all of those things, as well as on the opposite end of that, you could have a kiddo that's sensory seeking and a sort of, you know, needs that deep pressure touch.

there's a lot of that. Nutrition problems, which can, you know, there seems to be sometimes in some kiddos a disconnect between their brain and their stomach where they don't recognize hunger or they don't recognize that they're full. Right. Also common would be, some kids present with extreme sugar craving, beyond that of a typical kiddo. So one of my older kids just he would rather drink sugary beverages than even eat food.

Like, he'll forget to eat food, but he'll he needs he wants that sugary beverage. Yeah. Now, of course, our kids oftentimes coming in, you know, through adoption and foster placements do have struggles with food. Right? Because they've had, you know, lack of food, malnutrition, things like that.

So there's, you know, that's also our reality. But this is more of a a disconnect between the brain and the gut. Language and communication challenges, so not understanding or struggling with especially spoken, you know, not understanding words, you know, not understanding body language, facial expressions. You know, sometimes kids will seem like they understand what you're saying. They can repeat back to you what you've said to them, but then they turn around and go do the opposite.

Right? It's like they can't execute it. And it's really that it's a brain thing. It's it's, you know, having a having trouble with the language. One of my kiddos, I was trying to a few years ago, trying to explain to one of my teens, we were going over appropriate.

What's appropriate language, appropriate boundaries. Right? These things are important when you're a teenage boy. And he was agreeing with me and nodding his head, and I thought we were having a great conversation, but then something made me stop and ask, do you understand what do you know what the word appropriate means? And he was like, no.

What does it mean? You know? And I'm like, oh my goodness. And then once, you know, I taught that and we practiced that just just a few months ago, it was, you know, springtime here and it was unusually warm. And he was running out to to go somewhere.

We were leaving, and he shoved his feet into these big old clunky winter boots. And I'm like, oh, no. No. No. It's gonna be, like, 75 today.

Just put on your sneakers. He's like, no. I'm gonna wear these. I'm like, no. Wear the sneakers.

He's like, no. I'm gonna wear these. And I'm like, those are not appropriate. And he said, I didn't even say anything wrong. So he learned appropriate.

But it was

Only in one context. He couldn't, like, apply it anywhere else. There's a lot of language and communication. Slow processing pace is another big one. And that's just sometimes we I like in I like in it too.

They grasp every third word that is spoken to them. So if you're giving a list of instructions, they're not gonna catch them. They might catch the last thing that you said. You know, think of the kiddo who's, you know, coming home from school and you're telling them, okay. Go change.

Get your backpack. You're gonna do your homework. I'll get you a snack, and then you can go play after your homework is done. Right? You can go play.

Then you come back and where are they? They're playing. And then they're in trouble because they didn't obey all of the things that you told them that they needed to do. But really, they did. They just only caught the last thing you said, which was go play.

Right.

So it you know, so there's

Or maybe one of those things in between. Right? Like so that so there's, like, there's incomplete, but then yeah. Yeah.

Typically, I know I tried it out with my first learned about this, you know, many years ago. I tried it out with my son because he wasn't I was like, we learn, you know, with TBRI to, like, we want them to learn to make decisions, give choices. So I'm like, oh, I'm gonna do that. So what would you like for breakfast? Because if I would just ask, he would say, oh, whatever you want.

He didn't even make that decision. But if I would say, oh, you would you like eggs, cereal or oatmeal? He would oatmeal. And I noticed every morning he would pick oatmeal and then he wasn't really eating the oatmeal. And I started to realize I don't even think he likes it.

So then I learned about this and then I started switching up the menu, like, so it's the same things, but I would put them in a different order. He would always just ask for whatever I said last. Mhmm. Right? And then also it can look like, you know, you ask a kid a question and they don't answer right away.

I just had a mom share with me that her, you know, her her daughter, her high school age kid came home from school. You know, 1st day of school, you know, there's a backpack full of stuff that needs to be signed and the parents need to see. So she asked her daughter, you know, is there anything in your backpack I need to see? And her daughter said, nope. And then but this mom had just learned about this, and she said, I just waited and didn't say anything.

And after about 5 minutes, her daughter came back and said, oh, yeah. I have this paper in my in my backpack. She just needed extra time to process that and come back with an answer. So sensory processing, learning and memory, short term memory, really, really challenging for our kiddos. There's a lot of a lot of challenge with that.

A lot of learning challenges, abstract thinking. Right? So they have a very difficult time with with understanding money, understanding time, understanding any abstract concept, certain kinds of humor. They're very concrete, literal thinkers. So if I say to my son, oh, we're having company tonight and they're coming at 5 o'clock, and they don't get to our house until 5:15, you lied.

You said they were coming at 5 o'clock. I'm like, no. I'm not in charge about when that's what time they said they were coming. You know? But there's that those kinds of conversations oftentimes.

Executive function is a big one. And we call that, you know, executive function, the boss of the brain. And just to break executive function down because that's a big one, that's, you know, your prefrontal cortex, the front part of the brain, in charge of so many important tasks, organizing, planning, transitioning from one task to the next. So are you having meltdowns when they're playing a video game and you say it's time to get ready for bed? Right?

Goal setting and working the steps out to reach a goal, regulating emotions, attention span, short term memory, and impulse control, which I think most of us, if you've got a kid with an FASD, you are struggling with that. Right? Because it's sometimes you're I remember doctor Karen Purvis saying years ago at a conference that if you have a child, who you tell often or you have to say or you find yourself saying, what were you thinking? You have a child with trauma. And that's that's the same thing.

If you know, what were you thinking? Because it seems like they're not thinking. They just react. They do. But all of those things are part of executive function, and that's the part of the brain that's often significantly impacted by prenatal exposure.

Doctor. So Sandra, every time I hear you run through that list, I just, in my mind, I think, have you been sitting on our couch? Like, were you home with us? Because it I mean, and I think, it truly, I think one of the things we've learned along the way in this is because we see almost all of those things, frankly. But it's that where we have conversations about trauma and where a lot of us have done a lot of work in trying to understand trauma.

The complexity of FASD is that those learning gains that you make are so much harder. And it's so much more complex to get to those breakthroughs. And so I think from a parent standpoint, FASD is a really frustrating

Oh, yes.

Yeah. Because I think we're when we think of trauma, we think, well, brain plasticity. If we just keep at this and we keep repeating the same things and we keep the sooner or later, there's going to be we're going to make some inroads and we're going to create neural pathways. And there's going to be and we're going to see those gains. What we just have to do is be faithful to continue to work at those things.

And I don't want to create a picture of hopelessness because it's not hopeless. But the fact is that to get to those things, it is much, much harder. And in some cases, I think it's also the journey to realizing that there are some of those things you just may not ever get to. We're going to continue to work. But our expectations have to be built around that there are some things that because of the difference in brain architecture and the difference in the way the maladaptive way that the brain works, that there are some things that just we those adaptations and accommodations just frankly may not, you know, may not happen.

And and I think that's a tough part of this from the, you know, from the parental side. And I know you've you know, you've you've written about this. You talk about it all the time. You do lots of, you know, lots of work and lots of training. And so, I'm sure I'm sure that's not a, you know, that's not a that's not a rare refrain with, you know, with parents that are that are dealing with with FASD.

Yeah. I find that we really have to come to a paradigm shift because it's understanding that it's a it's a brain thing. Right? This is a brain difference. And, you know, yes, you know, neuroplasticity is definitely something, you know, that is very real.

There hasn't been, to my knowledge, any any research or study done on neuroplasticity and FASD. And alcohol changes literally the structure and the function of the brain. Mhmm. So, you know, it's it's you know, during brain development, those neural pathways are altered. Neurons are often you know, those brain cells are often killed or or, harmed.

And there's just the brains are just wired differently. Now, again, not to be hopeless because our kids can grow and they can learn. You know, I've I've got, you know, I've got a 19 year old now, a 21 year old, and then one of our older, kiddos who's 34. When she first came to us, we didn't know anything about trauma, first of all. And then and it wasn't until I began to really learn about FASD that she checked all of these boxes.

Like you just said, if I've been sitting on your couch and I've when I learned all of these, I'm like, oh my goodness. And we wouldn't have suspected FASD probably with her because her mom was a relative of mine. She was a a professional woman. A professional woman. She wasn't married.

She was in her thirties, but she also had another health condition and was told she could never get pregnant. So she was many weeks along, probably 10 to 12 weeks along before she knew she was pregnant. And she wasn't an alcoholic, but she drank socially on the weekends up until when she finally figured out, oh my goodness, I'm pregnant. She became that perfect first time expectant mom, watched what she ate and drank and, you know, took her prenatal vitamins and all of that. But those first 10 to 12 weeks when the brain is being developed and the central nervous system is being developed, when you ex expose those things to alcohol, it alters all of that development.

while, you know, she's made great strides in her life and it we had especially because we didn't know what we were dealing with, you know, many years at home were very challenging. In her in her teens and her twenties were were disastrous. But now in her thirties, she's kind of landed in a better place. But you can still see when interacting with her, there are some deficits that, you know, we can notice and we re recognize that she you know, it's probably the prenatal exposure. So they can become very successful, but they need support along the way.

We need to recognize their brains work differently, and they need accommodations for their disability just like we would accommodate anyone with a physical disability that we can see.

Right. And I and I think that's, you know, that's part of the really the understanding that that helps you to, you know, move to move to a good place and to a healthy way of of dealing with this is that that in some cases, you're planning around a lifelong need for accommodations and a lifelong need for support. And when we get that figured out and maybe stop jousting at windmills a little bit and some of the things that we're attempting to do, I think it really does, as parents, I think it there's a probably a little bit of a moment of breakthrough, I would say, there. There's that, okay, we now know what we have. We know what we're dealing with.

And that and again, that's not to say that our kids can't make progress. It's not to say that they don't learn or that they can't change. But it's that it's so much more difficult. And it and there are and there just are some things that you probably are not going to you're not going to ever conquer. Like one of our our guy that is, you know, that is on the spectrum, he has a wonderful ability to connect with people.

He's very personal and very and also has seemingly great language ability. And so, he is able to talk and carry on a conversation. And, you know, but what you find what you begin to figure out is that he really doesn't know the meaning of a whole lot of those words. And and he's a master at context and and sort of being able to, you know, to play context in order to be relatable. But when it comes down to actually grasping, you know, the the concepts, it just it just isn't there very often.

And so, part of what he needs in his life is he needs somebody that's going to slow down and ask him questions. He needs somebody that's going to that's not going to take for granted that there are things that he sounds like he's very adept and knows that, like what you said with your son, like he doesn't know the meaning of that word, or maybe even many of the words that he's strung together. And so, on that note, for us as parents, it's really important that we understand what our kids are dealing with. We understand the but we also understand the opportunities for changes and accommodations and support that can be provided for our kids. And so, why is awareness and knowledge so important for moms and dads of kids that are, that are on the fetal alcohol spectrum?

Yeah, that's a great question. And I think it's because we really need to know what's going on, right? So that we can you know, if you have a kiddo with a, you know, with a Down syndrome, you're gonna become an expert in that so that you can give them the best quality of life. Or if they have a visual impairment or a spinal cord injury and they're in a wheelchair, whatever the disability may be, we need to know all about that. Right?

And we need to know outcomes and treatments and medications. You know, we become the experts on those things so that we can best support our kids. When it comes to FASD, because the symptoms are behavioral and it's not a disability that you can just see by looking at them, We're looking at behaviors, and we just have that tendency to correct behavior. Right? We wanna correct these behaviors, and it looks like it's oftentimes willful disobedience, rebellion, opposition, all of those kinds of things.

And not that our kids can't or won't do those things, but if we can step take a step back and look at, you know, and start questioning and asking ourselves, could this be their brain? Could this be their brain working differently? Because so often what happens is when we don't understand that all of those symptoms that we just talked about, are primary symptoms of this disability, and we continue to set our expectations on what we think they should or would be able to do, and then they aren't able to do it and it looks like they just won't, we really create these secondary symptoms. So, you know, these kids can be, you know, anxiety, they self isolate, they're easily overwhelmed, frustrated, poor self esteem, depression. They, you know, they argue problems at home, problems at school.

So then, again, we're we're trying to focus on fixing all of those things. But when we can recognize what what's really going on and that this could be a brain based condition, you know, and then it's only, you know, right and just for us to support them so that they can be successful. And a lot of times we wanna just issue consequences and fix behavior, which actually exacerbates the whole problem.

You know, for, you know, one of my one of my boys, you know,

when he has a lot of anxiety, he tends to use swear words. And we're not, you know, we don't we don't swear at home. Right? You know, but I have a kiddo who, you know, when he's dressed, so, you know, he was getting in trouble for school in school for swearing. And you could track it and know exactly what was going on.

You know, when you're in a cafeteria, which he was supposed to have a support person and the school didn't realize, you know, there was a there was a mix up. And I found out he was in the cafeteria at lunchtime with his class, and he has a special ed class, but there was no teacher assistant or 1 on 1 support person for him, which wasn't supposed to happen. And he got in trouble for saying you know, for for swearing. And we were able to track it down and I realized, well, wait a minute. He was unsupported in an environment that's loud and crowded and overwhelming, and there's too much going on.

You've just set him up for failure. Right? So he wasn't being, you know, swearing to be, you know, because he was sitting and disobedient or whatever. He was frustrated and overwhelmed, and that's how he was coping. But, of course, you know, you wanna issue a consequence and you want him to stay after school for detention.

First of all, he didn't even know what the word detention meant. And second of all, you know, those behavior modification techniques, you know, you know, a consequence is supposed to fix behavior. Right? That's what we wanna do. We wanna teach a lesson.

But with somebody with a brain based condition, they don't make those connections that, oh, this is this is why. Like, we're not fixing the behavior. You were actually creating more anxiety in this kid. So you're gonna see more of the behavior you want to stop. Right?

So instead of that, he needs his support person at lunch or actually what we did was, you know, when we gave him the option of eating lunch in the class room with the teacher, which most neurotypical kids would think would be horrible punishment, my son was relieved because to him, there's 500 kids in the cafeteria, which it's a smaller school. There's maybe a 100 kids in there, but to him, it felt like 500 kids. It was too loud, too much going on. And he felt much better having lunch in a quiet classroom with just a couple of people. And then, you know, we didn't see the the swearing stopped.

But suspend in school suspension or detention wasn't gonna fix the behavior. So you have to understand what's going on with the brain, how their brain works, what their symptoms are, and how to best support them. So instead of seeing frustrating and escalating behaviors, you know, we can support them, and they can they can be successful.

Well, I think, Sandra, it also has it's been our experience that one of the toughest things about this is the lack of resources and the lack of places to turn. And we alluded to that earlier. But I think, you use the illustration of if your child had Down syndrome, you become an expert on Down syndrome. Well, it's down syndrome resources are plentiful. And you're as close as Google to being able to find those things.

It's a little bit harder to find good resources and find good help. Although, it's becoming much more prevalent now than it has been. But where would you point folks to go to find good resources and find some places to begin? If they're hearing this today, and they're saying, man, this is this really sounds like this might be the thing or might be part of what's going on with my child. Where would you point them?

What would you tell them to do?

Yeah. So there's a few places. And I do have to agree with you. It's very hard to find resources. And I know your listeners are all over the country, probably other countries even.

But here in the United States, if you go to fasdunited.org, they're the national organization on FASD, and they now have a feature called family navigators. So you just go to that part of their website, type in some basic information, and a real live person, which is usually a parent with kiddos with FASD, will get back to you pretty quickly. And then you let them when they know what state you're in, they they keep a database now. They're growing a database of resources by state so that they can point you in the direction of where you could get diagnosis, where you could get services, training, and those kinds of things. It is hard though because a lot of states don't have a whole lot to offer.

Mhmm. So parents really have to advocate and become the experts. FACETS, which is an organization where I went through and got training, through, and that's f ascets, facets.org. That's a lot of what I teach because I became a certified facilitator of the facets neurobehavioral model. So you can go there for some information as well.

Proof Alliance, not none of the none of the above organizations, I will tell you. None of these are Christian organizations, but they're, you know, they're out there and they've got really good information. Proof Alliance is based in Minnesota. They've got some great resources and one pagers and and information. But also, you know, if you go to my website, which is, you can go to sandraflack.com, which is my personal website where I blog about this.

So there's lots of resources there. And then, justice for orphans ny.org, because I offer through there, we offer lots of online training, and we have a support group for parents and caregivers of of, people with FASD diagnosed or not, and it's faith based. So we pray for each other. You know, we're we're connected in that way. I think it's the only faith based, support group for FASD in the world as far as I know.

But we've got a great group of mostly moms, but we've got some dads that pop on to there as well. And I also do some one on one parent, coaching online. So, you can check out our resources as well.

Well, and I I want to make sure folks know that'll the all of that information will be in the show notes. And so you can find Sandra's website, the the website of of her ministry organization, Justice For Orphans. And and we'll connect you to both because we believe in what you're doing. And, and and really, are thankful for the for the way that God is using you to speak into, the body of Christ about, you know, about this issue. And I think, I harbor this little dream that I'd one day that we're going to see church based support groups for families that are struggling with FASD.

Because I think there's I think the prevalence of this is much greater than we understand. I think there are more kids, as you said, that are struggling with FASD that are undiagnosed. And families are hurting because they're without answers and in most cases, without hope. Because they just are on the treadmill of and it's so it's rinse and repeat every day over very similar issues. And I think it's there's a freedom that God brings when you begin to understand what you're dealing with.

But part of what the Lord really, I think, can do and does do for us is given us other people that understand and people that, you know, can identify as well. And and I really think this is just an untapped ministry opportunity that we have that, we have the opportunity to be able to step into. And so, I both commend you, but commend you to others to say, Sandra really has invested a bunch of her life and energy into this. And God's using her in a in a pretty profound way in the lives of just a lot of families. And so I, I just wanna say to the folks that are listening to this podcast that we, you know, we want to we want to make sure that if this is something you suspect that you take the take the opportunity to connect.

And so, Sandra, as we close today, we've heard your story on a previous podcast. We talked a lot more about your family and about your stories of adoption and just where you guys have been. But, with all that you've experienced and all that the Lord's led you through to this point, what what would you say what do you what do you want to say to mamas and daddies that are out there that are that are parenting kids with FASD? Or maybe they're parenting kids that they haven't known what the answers are. And today is helping them kind of open their eyes to the fact that, you know, FASD may be, a part of the, you know, the journey and experience of their child.

Oh, yeah. So, I would say, you know, 1st and foremost, we all understand now that we all have to be trauma informed. Right? But we also have to be FASD informed because it's so prevalent among children and child welfare, foster, adoptive, and kinship placements. So parents need that education.

And, you know, you mentioned earlier, Rick, that, you know, everybody's heard of autism. Right? There's probably not a person on the planet who hasn't at this point. Maybe not everybody exactly understands it or is professional, you know, in it, but, you know, we've all heard of it and have some idea of what it's about, and that's because of fierce parent advocates.

Right.

That's what we're starting to see rise up in the FASD community as well. It's parents because you can't rely on your doctor or your pediatrician or the special education teacher or even the therapist to know about it. You know, I've 22 leading FASD doctors in in the country I've interviewed, and they both said the same thing. We didn't learn about this in medical school. Maybe we got a paragraph in a textbook

Yep. Or, you

know, 5 minutes in a lecture. So there it's not being taught yet as as as extensively as it really should be. There's also a stigma, right, that goes along with this because it is preventable, and it's caused in utero and it doesn't have to. So there's a lot of things against us, but, you know, the Lord really is faithful in equipping us and providing everything we need for this parenting journey. So I would say parents need to learn.

Learn everything you can about FASD and understand, you know, that your child is having a hard time. It's a brain based disability, and and join their team. You know, we need to stop being, you know, those punitive parents that wanna punish and and try to correct behavior that way. But, you know, some of the some of the important points that I always point out to parents are, always take into consideration, could the brain have something to do with the behavior that I'm seeing? And if so, how can I help?

What what does my child need? How can I support them and accommodate them to be successful? Always take into consideration their developmental age when they are, you know, when they are with anything, with any expectation that we have for them, where are they developmentally? Are they, you know, you might have, you know, a 12 year old, but really cognitively, developmentally, they're they're performing more like a 6 year old. So we need to set our expectations on what they can do at the 6 year old level.

And, yes, over time, they can they can grow. Right? And they can improve, you know, but there's that dismaturity piece. They're often frustrated and acting out and having the meltdowns because we set expectations that they're they're just not there yet. So we need to meet them where they're at, and, you know, seek the Lord.

Pray pray for our kids. You know, they are fearfully and wonderfully made. God created each and every one of them. And even our kids with FASD have strengths. God has gifted them, you know, with unique, abilities and skills and talents.

We wanna build on those strengths because our kids know every day that they're not good at stuff. Things are hard for them. Yeah. They all have something, right, that we can build on and we can focus on. So whatever whether they're artistic or mechanical or athletic or good with animals or children or the elderly or, you know, whatever it is, musical, whatever it might be, allow them to build on those things.

We need to nurture those things in our kids because that will build their self esteem, and help them to feel successful. And they'll learn better when we can plug in some of their strengths too.

Yeah. You know, I I think the way I would sum it up is is is we have to get to a place where we understand that this isn't about maybe what we've done wrong or what we could be doing wrong. The question is, what can you begin to do right? And what's the right thing to do now? And focusing on the fact that that's not the right question for your child either.

That this isn't about what your child is doing wrong. It's about what your child can't do. And so, what can we do right to support them in what they can't do? And by God's grace, that can put us on a journey where we can see some pretty incredible gains and see our kids. And that's hard to see in the moment.

But you look back over the years and we can see dramatic progress that they've made. But it's about focusing on what we can do right. And I think God grants us the opportunity to do that and shows us a lot of himself and a lot of his grace in the midst of that journey. Senator Flash, thank you so much for joining me again. I always love these conversations.

And we'll have to we'll just have to agree we're going to do it again and keep talking and keep banging the drum until we find more families and find more ways for us to connect and and to help, you know, help our kids and and do what we do in our family. But thanks for being with me.

Well, thank you so much for the opportunity, Rick. I greatly appreciate it.

We thank you for joining us on the Defender Podcast. And, as always, we're we're thankful for your listening and being with us and and, wanna commend Sandra and her resources to you. And we also want to remind you that we're here at Lifeline Children Services to help you at lifelinechild.org. And, and so, you know, seek us out. We'd love to we'd love to help if we can come alongside your family or church in some way.

And, and for the Defender podcast, we'll be right back here again next week. And, Herb will be back, and and we'll be we'll be together again for another episode. So thanks for joining us, and we'll talk to you soon.

Thanks for listening to the Defender Podcast. If you enjoy making this podcast a part of your weekly routine, we'd love for you to take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review the Defender Podcast to make it easier for more people to find. For more information on how you and your church can partner with Lifeline, visit us at lifelinechild.org. If you want to connect with me, please visit herbynewell.com. Follow us at Lifeline on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter by searching for Lifeline Child.

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