Welcome to the defender podcast, a resource to help mobilize and equip the body of Christ to manifest the gospel to orphans and vulnerable children. This podcast is a ministry of Lifeline Children Services, and I'm your host, Herbie Newell.

It's Wednesday, January 8, 2025, and I'm coming to you from Birmingham, Alabama. And today, I am joined by Jor-El Godsey, who is the president of Heartbeat International. He's not only a friend of Lifeline, but Jorel himself is a dear friend of mine and a dear partner, and Jorel leads a dedicated team that supports pregnancy help centers, maternity homes, and adoption services worldwide. The mission of Heartbeat is to empower leaders in the pregnancy help movement by providing training, resources, and daily support to assist affiliates in serving women and couples at risk for abortion. Jarrell's been involved in this movement since 1988, starting as a volunteer at Hope in Fort Lauderdale, then serving on the board and ex as and as the executive administrator.

Jarrell became the executive director of Life Choices in Longmont, Colorado in 1999 and joined Heartbeat International as vice president in 2006. As the 2nd president in the organization's history, he emphasizes the importance of collaboration, and Jarrell lives in Columbus, Ohio with his wife, Karen, and they have 3 children who are in Florida and Louisiana. Yeah. I'd I'm so excited about this conversation to be able to talk to Jarrell, for you to be able to hear a little bit more about Heartbeat International. And, again, Heartbeat is not just the largest crisis pregnancy center, movement in the United States, but they truly are worldwide.

And I have loved even the times that Jarrell and I end up in this in similar situations or or in different parts of the world, and we're able to communicate about what the Lord is doing. But before we hear from Jarrell, I wanna remind you about sanctity of life Sunday and this month of January where we highlight the sanctity of human life. It was established by Ronald Reagan in 1984 as an observance that would take place on the 3rd Sunday of January to remind us of our responsibility to value and protect every human life. We believe that effective action starts with being equipped, which is why we are excited to provide a resource, a guide tailored for churches. This guide will help your congregation engage deeply with the pro life movement, providing practical tools for discussion, prayer, outreach, and even small group curriculum.

Join us as we explore how you can download this resource and empower your church to stand boldly for life. To access the resource guide, you can always visit lifelinechild.org backslash sanctity. Again, that's lifelinechild.org backslash sanctity, or check our show notes for a direct link. Well, Jarrell, brother, it it's always good to see you, but we, we're blessed to have at least 4 times a year that we have built in that we're gonna get to see each other, really 5. But, brother, I so appreciate you and the work that you do, not just at heartbeat, but in the greater pro life ministry.

You know, we are part of 2 collaborations and I love just seeing your leadership, your passion, and the way that that you lead so effectively for the gospel and for life.

Well, likewise, Urvi. I I it's a privilege. I get to see you, like, all kinds of places and almost never in your home in your hometown or my hometown, so it's a it's a real privilege because I feel like I it's like having a a home away from home, and it's not where I'm at, it's who I'm with, and it's always a pleasure when you're around. And I we get to talk some SEC football. We get to talk, of course, about the passion that we have for this work.

So it's a it's a likewise, Herbie. I really appreciate what you do, your leadership, your voice, and also that you you understand, unlike others, what it means to impact internationally. And I know you, put on some miles, maybe even more than I do, and I'm grateful for it.

Well, we, we're definitely both competing for those miles. That's for sure because you're on the road a good bit too, brother. And, you know, just even at on the offset since you brought out SEC football, even though you're right there square in Big 10 country, in Columbus, no one needs to, for a moment, not think that you're a huge SEC. You're a Gator, Florida Gator, graduated from Florida, or huge Florida fan, and so, yeah, it's always fun to talk SEC football, and, fortunately, we were not quite as close, in the early 2000 when Florida had Alabama's number. So, you know, Jorel, a lot of people might be listening to this podcast, and they're familiar with crisis pregnancy centers.

They may be even have volunteered, have given to a crisis pregnancy center. For some adoptive parents, they may be, you know, umbilical connected to a crisis pregnancy center because that was where the mom of their child first came and and was told about choosing life and maybe adoption. Talk to us, though, about Heartbeat International, how Heartbeat came to be, and just the primary mission of Heartbeat.

Sure. You know, I wasn't around at that time. It was back in, the early days of the pro life movement, really, in response to the sexual revolution, of the sixties, which then brought out the, issue of abortion, of course, was a natural, step for the sexual revolution to find itself in. And in that day was the 1st state in the US, 1967, state of Colorado legalized abortion in that state, followed quickly by California, North Carolina, and Oregon. So in that in the 1967, we had 4 states, move towards abortion, and and that's sparked a response, by the by the pro life community, really, the the the church, that was standing against it at that time.

And out of that, of course, came this mindset. I've talked to folks that were around at that time and were deeply involved, and, you know, they thought things like, oh, well, this will get straightened out in no time. Right? This this is just an this is just an aberration. It's a blip.

We'll get our minds right. And, but the women who who need help to make sure that they don't feel like they're being, enticed into abortion or feel like they have no other option, they need help. And that is the beginning of of the modern pregnancy health movement, really was that late sixties. And after a while so some more states began to legalize abortion. We had, more than a dozen in just a few years.

This is before Roe. So in 1971, a group of people met in Chicago and they had a meeting and out of that meeting came Heartbeat International. Really, we felt, like, there had to be a group that kind of connected the pregnancy health, community together, networking, training, and whatnot as a part of the overall larger pro life movement. You know, there there's need at the legislature, and I know that you've been a part of that and and and made, treks to Washington and other states to help make those things happen. There's a need in educating the the the general populace about this issue, and our friends at Right to Life have done done that over the years.

But there's always been a need to help that woman who may or may not know even about the politics, but help that woman not need abortion. So we originally called Alternatives to Abortion and, that was out of 1971. And in no time, it became Alternatives to Abortion International. We had several, countries that that had representatives travel to the US to be a part of those early trainings, and so that really launched this. It wasn't until the early nineties we changed our name to Heartbeat International, and we saw we we had continued growth in that time, and and since then and now, as you mentioned, we have more than, 3,700 affiliated locations across the globe in 9 more than 90 countries.

The vast majority of those are gonna be in the US, which is has the largest network of pregnancy help locations. And for us, like you, Herbie, I know you worked in different types of pregnancy help, not just pregnancy centers, but also with maternity homes. You guys are great at adoption agency work, inspiring others as well as your own. And so we see that same spectrum of pregnancy help. It's all of those, all of those different outreaches working together as a more like a spectrum.

And so we serve, the vast majority of our affiliates are gonna be pregnancy centers, but also maternity homes, and then, and then some of some of the nonprofit adoption agencies. And,

you know, Jiro, so much that Heartbeat is doing and the support that you're providing and and you've talked about around the world, you know, for a lot of folks that are listening, and even as we started off, you know, this is sanctity of life month as set forth by by Ronald Reagan. However, that was always to commemorate kind of the Roe v Wade, that tragic decision in 1973. Fortunately, by god's grace, we didn't make it to 50 years and it was overturned in 2020 in June of 2020 with the Dobbs case, but it really has changed the landscape of pro life ministry in a lot of ways, and I think probably not the ways that people expect us to say. You know, when I say change the landscape, people probably expect us to say it's gotten easier or, you know, abortion is just not as accessible around the nation, but one of the things that I love about Heartbeat is doing is you guys are on the cutting edge of meeting women who are maybe face to face with chemical abortions or face to face with abortion that is, in a lot of ways in states, a lot more prevalent than it was pre Roe.

Talk to us about the changing landscape of the abortion industry and how heartbeat is looking to to meet women where they are to be able to really give them godly counsel, but also counsel towards life.

Yeah. This has been one of those, kind of untold stories. The Pregnancy Center movement is an largely untold story as well. But to me, it's everywhere it occurs, it's that community's response to the same question by the holy spirit. What are you going to do to help people not need this?

This is, you know, just like the churches are established against the gates of hell. Right? So are these pregnancy help outreaches. But what we've seen is, the abortion industry shifting in a major way. And they we we started to see this we saw it because, it got a lot closer to us before, COVID, actually.

So in 2017, we were aware of something called the abortion pill reversal, and then and I'll get to that in a second, but that that made us more aware of how abortion pills were being used. We had, telecare abortions were beginning to happen because the technology was such that they could supposedly fulfill the responsibilities of their health care responsibility in in prescribing abortion pills. But obviously, that began to change when we started to have a much more you have Amazon, you have all these delivery mechanisms that are coming in which, frankly, you know, who doesn't enjoy the fact that you order something one day and it shows up on your, you know, porch in the next day or 2. Right? Those are those are amazing developments from our technology, but the abortion industry saw that coming and began to orient themselves and began to then move their paradigm from a brick and mortar business, which I think at its height back in the very early nineties had about 24 100 physical locations.

To now, it has, you know, it has, like, a fourth of that maybe. But but it's it's really begun to happen to where people can order abortion pills online. We're much more readily available in spite of the laws. So even our our champion states that are full on life states, you know, Alabama is one of those, Texas, others have made that choice. But the truth is is that abortion pills still be mailed into those states.

Abortion is still happening, everywhere. And in fact, we're hearing from the abortion industry that the numbers have begun have have been going up in the last few years, then that's after 30 years of decline. So this is this just means that the abortion pills are becoming more and more of a factor in enticing women to make a quick decision. They don't really they they, meaning the abortion industry, don't really want her to have the time to really think about it. They're really kind of driving her into a quick decision, to get her to pull that trigger, which for them is a profit scenario as well as an ideological one.

And so they they just start doing everything they can to make the process frictionless, and that means order and get it delivered. And and they can happen in now it happens in someone's home, in a dorm room, in their own bathroom. This is where chemical abortions are occurring. And, we learned about this when, as I mentioned, abortion pill reversal became a thing. An abortion pill reversal is the potential to reverse the effects of the abortion pill, Because we found that there were women that were not just we, there was some doctors doing this, found that there are women who felt rushed into that first taking that first pill of the 2 pill abortion regimen, mifepristone, and then suddenly regretting it.

And, Herbie, we've gotten calls right from the parking lot of abortion clinics where they were just in there. They just took that first pill. They have the second pill, which they're told to take within the next 24 to 48 hours in their possession, their little brown bag. If you've seen the movie Unplanned, you see that that that was the visual that I took away the most from that movie. But they call us right from that parking lot, and some of them have even gone to the fact that they've they've gone back in and they've said they've said, is there anything you do?

I don't wanna go through with this. And they're told no. And the sad part is that that's just not true. That since, 2006, from the when the very first abortion pill reversal was proven to be successful, we know that introducing progesterone, which is just what a woman produces for her own baby, if we introduce, bioidentical progesterone to her in that first 72 hours that we can see the potential, The the studies show us that it's, could be as much as 2 thirds of of those that try will be successful in reversing that abortion. So this is becoming a bigger issue in our land.

This becoming more available to hide from from, you know, from others, or and it's also, sadly, it's also becoming more, common that we're seeing the misuse of this where, the boyfriends and, you know, terrible husbands are actually using these drugs, unbeknownst to the women, in order to induce abortion. So it's a terrible thing that that, the the abortion industry has really wrought upon us. And, unfortunately, our FDA has participated in that over these last, I would say, the last 20 years, for sure, since its approval and at the very last year of the Clinton administration. So it's been around, and so now we see the numbers. It's probably around 70% of all abortions are chemical abortions.

Yeah. And that really, you know, I think that really changes the paradigm that so many people are looking at because I I I think that folks are still looking thinking of the bricks and mortar abortions, the abortion clinics, and it really also goes to talk about the urgency of the crisis pregnancy center movement because, you know, when it was bricks and mortar, you had the opportunity to try to delay a woman from making that choice of going into an abortion clinic, helping her think through the ramifications. At this point now, is it fair to say you're getting a lot of calls of women who've taken the first pill and are scared to death about what the what that means? It changes even the time period that you have to react to these emergency calls you're getting from women.

Well, it does. As we call it, often talk about in our meetings when we're together, we call it a shrinking window of intervention because until recently, you had to go somewhere in order to have an abortion. And now, in effect, you place an order online, and that abortion can come right to the home. So now, like, there's very little, if any, medical oversight in any of these. And this is why we're seeing some terrible headlines about, women who are suffering at the hands of lack of medical care and potentially even, you know, really malpractice by some of the doctors that are not treating them well enough.

And but guess what? The abortion industry is also teaching women to hide that information. You know? Hey. Hey.

We're gonna mail you these pills, and if anything goes wrong, go to the emergency room. Right? That's the right there. That that doesn't sound like a great plan for good medical care. But then the second thing gets worse is when and we've learned this firsthand from the from the women that reach us, that they're told, if you go to the emergency room, don't tell them you've taken the mifepristone, the first abortion pill.

And that if it was not okay to begin with to to do this kind of away from everybody, it's certainly not okay now to go and and intentionally lie to the person that is entrusted with your health care at that point of the emergency, department. And that, you know, that that seems to be particularly challenging in my mind that you have one industry is telling, oh, just trust us and don't trust your the person that now is gonna be responsible for helping you through these things. So the whole thing is insidious, and it puts more women at risk, which is the most difficult thing apart from abortion itself. It's the the the idea that that the government, it seems at least the ones that approve this stuff, seems to be more about helping big abortion and not helping women be protected, common sense, restrictions and constraints so that she is not put in a difficult situation and that she then is not really seen as as being having to be a consumer of something that really in her heart of hearts she doesn't want. And, you know, pregnancy is temporary, as you guys well know.

It's temporary, and it can be overcome. It's really the obstacles that need help being addressed, not the pregnancy.

Yeah. You know, Darrell, on a practical level, with all of these macro things that are going on, so the folks that are listening right now, who probably just got an education on what does the abortion industry look like and what does the fight look like, how can they support their local pregnancy center? What are things that they can do from home even in their neighborhoods, their communities, their churches to be a part of helping find the solution in the pro life ministry space. So how would you encourage those people listening to get engaged and get involved where maybe they don't have a medical degree or or they don't know how to take it to the, to planned parenthood who's sending this in the mail. What are things that they can do?

What's the next step they can take?

Well, there's there's 3 steps. They they're kind of increasing in their in their, commitment. The first thing is to be aware. Right? Oftentimes, look, there are, I think we the last count, we had about, like, 55% of of counties in the US have, pregnancy centers.

Right? So know know be aware of where the one is that's closest to you, and there's an easy way to find that. You can go to optionline.org. That's a a 247 call center that we have. You just go there, enter your, ZIP code, and you can immediately see it'll show you the 10 closest locations that really represent the vast majority of the pregnancy centers are there.

So be aware, and awareness is really something now that you can walk around with. Now if so, if you encounter someone, whether, you know, someone that you know from the school, someone that you know from your church, someone that you know just if you encounter someone with a, unplanned and unintended pregnancy, now you know that there's a there's a location nearby that can help. You know, we don't have to be the experts, those of us that are in the general public, but the experts are there in the pregnancy help centers. They know what resources are available to them right in their community, things from the state, things from maybe the city offers, things the federal government offers, that's a great thing to be aware. The next thing is to affirm, and I would say affirm.

Find them, go talk to them, pick up the phone and say, hey, thanks for being in the community. We got all kinds of other calls in the centers. That's not one we get very often. Please do that. If you appreciate what they do, just pick up the phone, stop by, and say, we just wanted to say thank you for being here.

Thank you for being available to help women not need abortion. And then the next step would be to advocate. So find a way to advocate. Maybe provide funds, donate materials. They're often many of them are looking for gently used items that they can pass along to to moms or if you just have a heart and say, I'm gonna, you know, have a gift card or buy something new.

Those are all ways to connect and and be a part of. And then part of the advocating could be really just volunteering time and helping them. They have all kinds of needs ranging from simple, to more extended. It's a great opportunity. This is really the Holy Spirit's work is is really happening in each and every one of these.

And let me tell you, Herbie, I know you know this, but there is a disparity in our country now. It's kind of a dividing line, and I would call it there are life states where we talked about earlier, have the laws that, they've enacted to protect women and constrain abortion. And then there are abortion states, where they've all all they've done is really try to protect abortion and abortionists, frankly. And so you have really 2 different dynamics, but both of them need pregnancy centers. Right?

Because, remember, in the life states, we still are just at the very tail and you said this earlier, we're at the tail end of 50 years of abortion as a reality in our land. So the women who are, you know, living their life today, all they've known are is abortion. And so when they wake up, in an unexpected unintended pregnancy, that's their first often their first thought. And it's one of those things where even though they might live in a state that doesn't allow for abortions or many abortions, they still need that help to then, now what now what do I do? Like, we our culture hasn't caught up with the idea that we can actually respect and honor honor motherhood and and women and, constrain abortion.

So until we do, that's what makes pregnancy centers that much more important in life states. And, of course, in abortion states, they're just doing everything they can. California, Illinois, New York is actually inviting women that come from other parts of the country into their states. So the practical help of someone finding a place that they that that is there to help them when they're thinking, I don't really want to do this, and most women don't. I would say the vast majority of them done.

In fact, we know that from a study last year, from some friends of our mutual friends of ours, that that more than 60% of women Yeah. And, you know, one of the things that I think is so important that you said,

Jorel, there too is I think a lot of our friends who might be listening from red states and even my home state of Alabama who has a total ban on abortion is saying, well, why are our crisis pregnancy centers even needed? And even in the last couple of weeks as we were closing out 2024, we unfortunately heard where the National Abortion Federation paid upwards of $16,000 to help a young woman from Alabama get up to Washington DC and have a 3rd trimester abortion. So even in red states, if we don't think that the blue states and the abortion lobby isn't going after women and that's really the thing, you know, Dorel, and I know you and I share this. So much of the pro abortion lobby, planned parenthood is trying to make this about women's health care, quote, unquote, friendly towards women, and yet the victim is not just the child. So many times the victim is the woman.

And I and I love what you said, and and and, yes, you and I both have seen the stat of over 60% of the women feel coerced. They didn't wanna do that. I know even with heartbeat and in your centers, you see women who are coming back with abortion regret, and and y'all have abortion counseling and and post abortive counseling. This really is a a a big issue. You know, one of the things that we've always loved about heartbeat, and you said it in the introduction, is heartbeat has been really a a coalescer, if you will say, of the pro life ministry.

Have been always just so impressed by the maternity housing coalition that you have. Our maternity home director has had a a just a a great community of being able to serve on that coalition, lead that coalition for a season, and then, of course, you have a lot of adoption coalition as well. I'd love to just hear the heartbeat, pun intended, of heartbeat that says, we don't wanna just be pre birth, but we wanna also be throughout the whole spectrum and really come on side of that woman pre and post birth.

Well, it it all goes back to the kind of fundamental understanding that children are a gift from God. We all we share that. And if and if God is the creator and God decided, then he has a plan. And how do we serve that plan except help them? And the point of a decision of abort or not abort is an important decision to be in.

But if she doesn't, abort, which, of course, is our our hope and our effort that she finds in her heart the way to do that, is then now what do we do? Now how do we help her? And, obviously, the the bigger connector here is the church. Right? That we want to connect her into the community of god, right, the community of his people who can surround her and help her in so many other ways than we can.

But there's this very particular reality about helping women in their pregnancy and then into that early stages of their of their parenting or in the process of adoption that we need to help them. And this is what I would say is that the folks that are in pregnancy centers, maternity homes, adoption agencies are like the special forces of the church. Right? We have a special duty, a special call, an opportunity to help her through that as she she grows into that role and then hand her off to the church who is gonna be there for her for for the rest of her life, her and her family. Right?

And then the family as it goes on from there. So that's always been a part of our heart, seeing really the sanctity of life, not just at that point of pregnancy, but beyond, seeing God's call, for that for that family, for that woman, for that child, and how do we serve that, and how do we do we, support that in every opportunity? And so that that's that's been the heart of heartbeat. We really see, a society, our vision is really a society that welcomes children and then dignifies them in a in a loving environment, and which, of course, our culture is not moving in the right direction overall for that, but it doesn't mean that it's not important. You know, motherhood and parenting are part of the fabric of humanity, and so we're a partner of God in all of that.

Right. Well, you know, we're coming from I'm coming from Birmingham, and we're excited, and I had the opportunity to know that Heartbeat was doing their annual conference in Birmingham but was sworn to great secrecy because You were. That's right. To catch you in my hometown and ask the right question of, what are you doing in Birmingham? But

Uh-huh.

Talk a little bit about the heartbeat annual conference, highlight some of the key themes and topics for this year, and talk about how the annual conference is so important to equipping the centers and your partners to better serve women and families.

Well, I love to talk about conference for a lot of reasons. We're very excited to come to Birmingham, mostly because they have Milo's sweet tea, which is among my favorite, and, so many other good things, not the least of which is our friends at Lifeline are are there gonna be with us. You're gonna be one of our speakers. So, like, what more do I need to say? Like, you're gonna launch us.

I'm excited for that, Herbie. But there's some, just really great things for when the pregnant cell community gathers together. Right? We yes. There are good tracks.

We we have everything from leadership training to, you know, board board things to client services to medical services. We have, marketing, fundraising, all of those things are part of that. The truth, though, is really found in our theme, which is together towards tomorrow. And the concept really is, like, we get we'll have all that good training, and it'll it'll be both in person right there in, downtown Birmingham, not the convention center. And and we'll also have a virtual version as well.

So we can have some of our internationals participate that can't join us. We do have several internationals that join us at the conference. And all of those good things are gonna be listed to go to and hear and participate, But there is nothing to me that is more powerful than being in a room of people called to do what you do, and that is an amazing opportunity. So we are really excited about that, about being there, about being together, being in Alabama. We're trusting it's gonna be good weather because, usually our friends from the North and other other states are ready to get out of their cold cold areas and come to someplace warm.

So we figure late April, early May ought to be that for Birmingham, but not not the real nasty heat of the summer too. So we're we're excited for that. We're gonna have a lot of special things that are going on in and around that, that event in the last part of April, beginning of May, and look forward to it.

Well, I will just tell you, Jarrell, and, I think I've told you this before, the reason you live in Alabama is for October April. Those are the 2 greatest months in Alabama, and those are the ones you live for. You endure the hot in order to get to October, and then you endure the cold, which, yes, we do have a lot of wet cold down here, and so you can get to April. So it's great months, great time. You know, if folks are saying, hey.

I wanna get engaged with more with with heartbeat, and and certainly, we didn't talk a ton because I I really wanted you to be able to talk about the work of Heartbeat as well as since it's sanctified human life, folks to really understand what's at stake. But, you know, Lifeline and Heartbeat are in coordination and partnerships to specific partnerships and looking for ways that we can continually expand the pro life spectrum from birth or really from conception to natural death, and so much that we're able to do in that really to make abortion unthinkable and unnecessary in our day and age. But if folks wanna get more engaged with what heartbeat is doing with these collaborations by attending the conference, by supporting one of the the crisis pregnancy centers, by by supporting Heartbeat nationally? How can they get in touch with Heartbeat? What's their next step, and how can they really get engaged with what Heartbeat and Lifeline are doing globally?

Thanks, Herve. There's always an opportunity to help locally, so I always encourage people to find that that pregnancy help organization locally. But optionline.org is one of the best places to be able to do that. And to just enter your ZIP code. You'll see who's close by.

But if the vision is really beyond that and for places where there might be need elsewhere, that's where Heartbeat is working around the globe outside the US. Of course, we're working in the US, but outside as well. We operate optionline.org. It's a 247 call center. We have a team that does 247 around the clock.

We have another team that is Abortion Pill Rescue Network, also 247, nurses around the clock. So there there are things that that you can help us do and then go internationally as well, and you can find that at heartbeatinternational.org. There's some really good things also. If you just want more more news about pregnancy help, then pregnancy, pregnancy help news is a curated site that we do. We write for that, and we repost some things there.

I know we've we've always highlighted some great things coming out of Lifeline. So there's tons of things to know about, tons of things to get connected, and if, the Lord's leading you, we'd love to talk to you.

Yeah. Well, for those that are listening, again, I think this was so good that Jarrell told us, if you're looking to get engaged, and there's no better time like today, especially as we look at sanctity of life month here in January, to be aware, wanna repeat optionline.org, go to optionline.org, put in your ZIP code, look for those centers around you. And the humility of of heartbeat is these are not just heartbeat centers. These are centers around the globe. They're ready to stand up and and help women and children.

Number 2, and I love this, and I would hope that for all of those listening, take the moment to pick up a phone, call your local pregnancy center, maybe even drop them a letter, and just thank them for what they're doing in this fight. Obviously, I got into this work at Lifeline because of my sweet wife, Ashley, that was the assistant director of the crisis pregnancy center or pregnancy test center, and I know that they are on the front lines day in and day out on the fight for life. And so affirm them and then advocate. Get engaged in this fight. We need every single person, and this truly is a fight for the lives of both women and children.

Don't allow the media or political talking points to trick you or to deceive you. This is much a fight for the family, for women, for children, and and we need to advocate and do everything that we can. Well well, brother, I think we were talking before. We've known each other in some capacity for the last 15 years and

Yep.

I can just tell you, it is and I I don't just say this because we're being recorded, but it truly is a a blessing to have your friendship, but it also is inspiring to me, to be shoulder to shoulder with you in this ministry of of promoting life and ultimately pointing people back to Jesus.

That's very kind, Herbie. I always, it always makes me smile when you're into the room. I just know the the what you're doing, across the US and around the globe is amazing, and I'm really eager to help it, and I'm grateful that we're we're friends and also SEC buddies as well.

That's right. Well, again, please get in touch with Jorel. Look at our show notes, and you will get the website for optionline@.org as well as lifelinechild.org backslash sanctity. And we thank you for joining us and wanting to defend the fatherless, and we look forward to seeing you again next week.

Thanks for listening to the Defender Podcast. If you enjoy making this podcast a part of your weekly routine, we'd love for you to take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review the Defender podcast to make it easier for more people to find. For more information on how you and your church can partner with Lifeline, visit us at lifelinechild.org. If you want to connect with me, please visit herbynewell.com. Follow us at lifeline on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter by searching for Lifeline Child.

You can email us directly at info at lifeline child dot org. Beloved, will you allow god to use the gospel to you to impact the life of a child? Please contact us because we are here to defend the fatherless. We'll see you again next week for the defender podcast.