Welcome to the defender podcast, a resource to help mobilize and equip the body of Christ to manifest the gospel to orphans and vulnerable children. This podcast is a ministry of Lifeline Children Services, and I'm your host, Herbie Newell.

Hey. Today is June 26, 2024. I'm Rick Morton, and this is the Defender Podcast. Well, in this episode, Herbie and I had the opportunity to sit down with Jonathan Lehman from 9 Marks. Jonathan is the editorial director at 9 Marks, somebody that I've gotten to know over the last several years.

We spoke together a few years ago at a conference in, Medellin, Colombia, and have just begun to get to know him. Obviously, I've known Jonathan from a lot of his books and and contributions that he's made to the church through non Marx. And so we had a pretty wide ranging conversation with him during our time at Southern Baptist Convention. And so what you're gonna hear today in this episode was actually recorded in our booth, at the Lifeline booth in the Southern Baptist Convention, and we talked about a lot of things. We talked about, the importance of biblical faithfulness in in caring for vulnerable children, as a part of the ministry of the church.

We we talked a little bit about what does it mean to be a New Testament church, about the role of Christians in demonstrating justice and righteousness to the world. We talked about things like the significance of pastoral leadership in in fostering a caring church culture about the church's need to recover a commitment to good works. We even talked about the theological implications of caring for orphans and the needy. One of the really great things that we delved into that I hope you'll enjoy is the conversation that we had about Charles Spurgeon and about his ministry, his preaching, his pastoral prayers, and and the the things that he did, to care for orphaned vulnerable children in the ways that put that, put the gospel on display. And so, we're excited to be able to share this conversation with you.

But before we get there, we also want to acknowledge that right now we're in the midst of an opportunity with an international adoption scholarship. And so we're thrilled to announce this incredible opportunity for families that are considering international adoption. This week, Lifeline is offering $1,000 scholarships toward any new applications for any of our international adoption programs. This scholarship will be directly applied to your 1st agency fee, making it a little easier to start your adoption journey. And we're thrilled that donors have helped us to be able to create this opportunity.

But we need you to hurry because there is there is a limit and and that will be ending this week. And so, don't let finances stand in the way of building your family through adoption. If you or someone you know is considering adoption, now's the perfect time, if you're considering international adoption. And so begin your adoption journey by visiting lifelinechild.org backslash begin, or you can check-in our show notes to find out. So that's lifelinechild.org backslash begin, or you can jump in to our show notes and find information about how you can be a part of this, generous scholarship.

We're gonna turn our attention to the interviewed. As I said, Jonathan Marks. Jonathan Lehman is the the editorial director for non Marx. He has a background in political science and journalism, that the Lord is now using in ministry here under both a master of divinity and a PhD in theology. He edits the 9 Marks series, the 9 Marks Journal, cohost Pastors Talk, their podcast.

He's of course an author and interim pastor. He and his family live near Washington DC, and he serves as an elder at Chevrolet Baptist Church. And he also serves as a teacher in several theological seminaries. It's great, to to know Jonathan, and we're always grateful for when he carves out a little bit of time with us to talk theology, to talk to church, and and ultimately to talk about, the role of God's people in caring for orphan and vulnerable children. Alright.

We're back again for the Defender Podcast. I'm Rick Morton along with Herbie Newell, and we have the distinct pleasure and opportunity to be able to sit down with Jonathan Lehman from 9 Marks. Jonathan, good to see you.

Hi. Thank you, Rick. Glad to be here.

Yeah. How are you today?

Doing great. Busy, here at the convention enjoying myself, but glad to be able to talk with you.

Absolutely. It feels like it's a a little quieter in here than it has been all day. There's been there's been a lot of hustle and bustle that's been going on, and Southern Baptist Convention is in full swing for sure.

People heading to dinner right now though.

Because you know if there's anything Baptists are gonna do, we're gonna eat.

It's true, it's true.

I've heard we're the people of the casserole dish is

our, but

you know Jonathan a lot of the folks that listen to our podcast are are they know you, they're familiar with you through your writings and and through the things that that they've seen that you've produced and and so it's a it's a real pleasure for us to have an opportunity to be able to have you on.

Thank you brother, praise the Lord, I appreciate that.

And I think you know one of the things that that we love that you you continue to contribute to the church is is just really, deep thoughtful commentary on on what it means to be a new testament church in the midst of the world that we live in today.

Amen. That's what I'm trying to do.

And and you do it very well. Great.

So Well, I I think of a text. Let me just go ahead and jump in.

Yeah.

I think of a text like, first Peter 210. Once you are not a people, now you are a people. Once you had not received mercy, now you have received mercy. Typically, as Christians, when we think about being the gospel and becoming Christians, we think about that second line. Once you had not received, I didn't have mercy, but then I got mercy.

Right.

But Peter parallels that with the first line. Not a people, a people. Mhmm. Which is to say, part of my identity as a Christian is I'm not just a new I, I'm a new we.

Right. There you go.

And I I love to talk about that.

There you go.

There I am talking about it.

This is gonna get good. No.

No. No. No. We'll see.

Well, no. And I and I think, you know, one of the things that that we, I think we're still continuing to struggle in some in today's church is is responding to the call to care for orphan and vulnerable children, to to do that well in in today's world, in the conditions we find ourselves in with government involvement and all the things that we have to work through. And and and so maybe first of all before we before we get into to talking about how the church does what it does, why is it important for, for a new testament church to care for orphan children today?

Well, what I think is important for the church to do is to demonstrate what a new humanity looks like. Wow. Right? We, human beings are called to care for one another in some sense. Everybody made in God's image.

But then you, of course, have the fall, the world doesn't. So God calls a people out to himself, right, beginning with Abraham and moving through the old testament, and they were to demonstrate Israel is to demonstrate justice and righteousness. Guess what? Israel didn't. Right?

They they weren't born again. They didn't have the spirit of God in them. So god sent his son and his spirit to form a new people, a new covenant people who would have his spirit, and those we are to demonstrate the justice and righteousness of god. So the lives of our congregations are to demonstrate justice and righteousness in in the full array Right. Of what that should look like, including caring for the widow and orphan, as James says Yeah.

In

chapter 1. We are to do good to all men, especially the household of faith, says Paul in Galatians 6. So why should churches care about orphans? Because we're called to be a just and righteous people that show all humanity what a true humanity should look like. And in in so far as we're not pursuing those good works by virtue of the good news that we've received, we're not living out what we're called to be.

Right. You know, and I I think it like, I remember going through seminary. We never talked about this. Yeah. This was this was not this was not a, this was not a theme that that we considered and and I think it was it was very reactionary to the social gospel.

And and to, you know, almost it was like there's this taint of of you know liberalism or this taint of drift from biblical Christianity. And so we don't want to come anywhere close to the line. And so what I think what's happened is we have a lot of churches that are still struggling with the the fact that they they don't wanna come anywhere close to justice ministry because they're afraid somehow they might they might catch liberalism.

Yeah. Well, I think in many respects, good works have been used in as an excuse by liberal churches at least since the early 20th centuries, maybe even a little bit in the 19th centuries to deny good doctrine. Like, we've been a little afraid of good doctrine, so we'll say, hey. Christianity is all about good works.

Right.

Okay. So the liberals have done that. And I think a lot of conservatives in reaction against that have maybe gone a little too far in downplaying the necessity and will of good works, as following on the good news that we received. But when you just go back to the scripture, and I was I was just thinking about the book of of Titus, for instance, just read through. Listeners might try reading through Titus, for instance today, And what you find is is is Paul talking to Titus again and again, 4 or 5 times, he talks about, giving themselves over to good works.

It's it's amazing how much it shows up in that particular text. And, I think Christians as a whole need to give themselves to good works. Now I'm not saying every listener needs to be all about Mhmm. Adoption Yeah. Children and orphanages, and we have different callings, different stewardships.

Yep. But your life as a Christian should be characterized by a general posture of and pursuit of good Mhmm. Works, and that's gonna look different. Right. Your life and my life and my wife's and your wife's and our children's lives if they're Christians and so forth.

And I think one of those things that the Bible gives prominence to that we should also give some prominence to is the the widow and the orphan.

Right.

Right? And that that shows up in the pastorals as well.

Right. Right?

And caring for the widows in the congregation, for instance. So yeah. No. I think this is a theme that conservative Christians need to recover. We're justified justified by faith alone, but the faith which justifies is never alone.

Mhmm. That's good.

Yeah. I think not to pivot just from that, but, you know, talking about not everyone is called to adopt, to foster, we're all care to do something. And I know in last year, you wrote a book on even godly authority leadership within the home and how it protects the vulnerable. I think we need to be going upstream some as the church to say, how do we reassert godly authority, godly rule that will also protect the vulnerable? Can you talk a little bit more about as church leaders, as people of God that we can really, you know, look more at the way that we lead the way that we conduct ourselves, and how that really does overflow in the care for the vulnerable.

And we need to be a people who aren't just trying to fix problems, but also get to the front of it so that the problem never starts in the the first place.

The first thing I think of is Psalm 72, this picture of this this beautiful messianic king, obviously pointing towards the Christ, but it's this it's Psalm 72 is from Solomon, and he's talking about this coming king. Give your the king your justice, oh god, and your righteousness to the royal son. May he judge your peoples with righteousness, the poor with justice, and it goes on. Now listen to this verse, verse 4. May he defend the cause of the poor of the people, give deliverance to the children of the needy, and crush the oppressor.

So he's not just worried about the needy. He's talking about the children of the needy, like the doubly desperate. Mhmm. And so you have this picture of this glorious messianic king who comes and brings this moment of redemption. And what is he doing?

He's putting down the pressure, crossing the pressure oppressor, but also lifting up the needy

That's right.

And the children of the needy. And really, it's like it's like this Disney broken spell moment. It's it says, may listen to this. It says, may there be abundance of grain in the land on the tops of the mountains. May it wave.

May its fruit be like Lebanon. I mean, you've seen those Disney movies, right, where there's a dark cloud over everything and the broken spell moment comes and suddenly the castle turns bright. Right. The gargoyles gargoyles turns into brilliant stallions and so forth. Well, that's this moment.

And what is it? Well, it's this messianic king coming to redeem and rescue a people and the children of a of a desperate people. Right? That's glorious. That is our savior.

Amen.

And so should we, as Christians, not look like that too? Right. Should we, as Christians, not demonstrate that same in our exercises of authority, especially, but to your question, you know, should the father of the home not be looking to protect and care for the vulnerable in his home? And I got kids coming, a friends of my kids coming over. Am I looking for ways to care for the friends of my kids who may be not coming from such homes or in in the church.

What is the pastor doing? Does does the pastor known as somebody in the church who the needy and the vulnerable know, oh, that's a place of protection.

Right.

And not just a place of, you know, he's the, you know, head honcho who Yeah. Tell you what to do, but, no, that's a place of protection. Do my children see me as a protector? If they don't, I'm doing something wrong. The authority God has given me.

And we can go a politician, a policeman, a you know, name whatever authority you figure you want.

That's right.

Sure. A manager in a workplace. Sure. Are you a place if you if you if you're a manager in some workplace, do your employees know you're a protector? Again, if not, you're not doing the job God has given you.

So, yeah, this is a huge theme throughout scriptural, and and it models our savior.

That's right. At least I think of another passage is Efoniah chapter 3, has that same arc of it starts in the first part and it says her officials, the leaders, the governments are roaring lions. The judges are evening wolves. The prophets are fickle and the priests profane what is holy. And then yet through Zephaniah chapter 3, you get to this point where you say, God's gonna come, he's gonna bring this rule and authority.

And he says, I will leave a people in your midst, a people humble and lowly, and they will seek refuge in the name of the lord. And there will be no injustice, and they will speak no lies, and there will be found in their mouth no deceitful tongue. And it talks about then that the the the the fatherless and the widow and the oppressed will find wholeness. We need godliness. And we need godly homes.

And we need men and women to love their children and and to make a difference in their churches and in the world. And so yes, we need adoptive parents. Yes, we need foster parents, but we also need those that are going to live with integrity in every day. And that's just so important. I think so many times we miss that.

In the church today, when we think about justice ministry, we just think about wrapping around those that are hurting, as opposed to what can we change to to break cycles?

Now on the one hand, I mean, I don't wanna wrongly guilt, you know, the person listening to this podcast who they're they're, you know, they're they're wrapped with all sorts of things they're doing in life that are important necessary things, you know, you're a mom of a bunch of little kids and you're going crazy just trying to keep your kids fed. You know, we're we're not all called to all the different ministries we could be involved in at the same time. I I wanna hold that, but on the other hand, I wanna be like, imagine with me for a second if Christians were actually known for being a people who, like, looked out for okay. I'm gonna go a little political here. Yep.

Looked out for people crossing the borders who are in tough situations. Now I don't pretend to be a policy expert. I don't pretend to be an immigration expert, but, man, I would sure love it if in one form or another, as we work through our policies of immigration and so forth, in one form or another, somehow Christians were known to be the k peep the people. In fact, people started getting frustrated with the Christians because we were the people who are always showing compassion and help with the most vulnerable among us. Right.

And you think about go back to Israel again. How did God talk about caring for the the ailing and the immigrants?

That's right.

There's something there. Now, again, I'm not saying that stipulates a certain policy for the United States government.

I'm not

saying that. I don't know. I'm not an expert.

Right.

I do know the people of God should show that kind of compassion and care, however it manifests itself. And I think that calls for a little hard work in each of us. That's right. What am I seeking to protect most? Right.

Or not?

Yeah. What was the church known for in the 1st century? Right?

Well, that's exactly right. Or if you go back to early Roman empire, you have letters from certain Roman proconsuls

Right.

To others saying these Christians are making us look bad because they're not only king for their own poor, they're king for our poor.

That's right.

You know? Like, that's beautiful. Right. And I'd love to see more of that in my own life.

Right.

Not just pointing the finger. I'd love to see more of that in my own life, in my own church, and and among saints in this country as a whole.

Well, as a as a part of non Marx, one of the, you know, one of the things that that we know is that that you're you're a part of a ministry that's dedicated to, to biblical faithfulness and and to calling the church to to live out the call biblically to be the church. And there's been an interesting thing that we've sort of seen over the last couple of decades which is as the church has begun to wake up to the need to care for vulnerable children through adoption, through foster care, through all of the avenues, There's a there's a theological renaissance that's sort of gone on at the same time. And, and so I'm setting up, I'm kinda winding up for a, you know, for a conversation here. So you and I met a couple of years ago in Colombia and we were in the midst of a group of probably a 1000 people in Colombia. And it's all of these churches around the the nation of Colombia that have that that are experiencing a really a theological revolution.

Good stuff going on, that's right.

Absolutely. And there's and what's happening is biblical Christianity is just exploding. Well what's come along with that is a right emphasis on caring for the vulnerable in our community in the name of Jesus and as a means of putting the gospel on display. How do we practically encourage that in our churches?

Yeah. I mean, I think the most important thing I mean, I'm speaking as an elder of a congregation now who who does this, a fair amount of the preaching at the moment. I I mean, I think it starts with the word of God.

Yeah.

That's that's what we do. We gather to preach the word word of God and and get around the word of God. And so, you know, I'd ask any pastors listening, as you preach and apply the scripture, are these themes that you're picking up, and are you applying it in this direction in your life? If you're if you're not, well, that that's that's the place to begin. Right?

I do think to some extent, it depends on elders, and pastors and churches and what they're excited about or not about excited about. You know? Give me an evangelistic elder, you're gonna have an evangelistic church. Give me a a a a an elder pastor who's given to discipling, and you're gonna have a discipling church. Give me an elder who cares about the poor and so forth, and increasingly, you're gonna you're gonna see more of that in church.

Did you read the book I told you to read?

I did.

Spurgeon of the Poor? Yes. How good was that? Phenomenal. I know.

Right?

Absolutely. Everybody go get it. I'm telling you. Like, it was it was crazy. I read it going to Dubai and coming back.

Okay. And I was I was just enwrapped on the

plane. By Alex DiPrima, d I p r I m a, I think it is. Anyhow, okay, there you had a pastor who was utterly given over to this kind of work and started very or helped to start or had people in his church start. And he did what he could to sponsor and help it along the way, these various ministries to orphans and others in the in the congregation who are very needy. And okay.

Then there there's a perfect example of what I was talking about before

Right.

Of of somebody who's in some sense pre social gospel rausch and bush turn of the century, Spurgeon's before that. Yep. He's not worried, oh, no, people are gonna think I'm liberal. Right? But it's his extremely conservative, strong, doctrinely driven church is emitting all sorts of wonderful, amazing, caring for the poor sorts of activities.

So what is he doing to do that? What can we to do that? Well, number 1, you know, a pastor who shows some interest in, whether that's he's taking time on the weekends to participate or not, I'm I'm less concerned about. But is he at least talking about in his sermons? Is this something that shows up in his pastoral prayers?

Is he providing opportunities in the life of the church for others to come along and say, hey. We're doing this. We're looking for volunteers. Or, hey. We're doing this.

Will you pray for us? So, you know, in my own congregation, we have a couple who's very into, foster ministry, and we do all we can in our congregation to give them a chance to share with us what they're doing. And they have people from the various foster agencies that are involved with. They show up in our prayer services and they share. The foster agency shares what they do and how to get involved.

And it's just, I'd say at least once a month in our church, in our prayer meetings, we're praying for this. And, lord willing more and more people will get involved in this kind of thing. So that's just one thing Yep. We do. You know, my, you know, my previous church when I was at Capitol Hill, we had people very involved with, preaching and getting involved in prison ministry, and then, Angel Tree.

You guys know Angel Tree. Yeah. Kids of Prisoners. Okay. That's another agency.

So there's a number of different things that we're looking, but the the elders aren't driving. Now we're trying to get the members to drive shot.

Right.

And we as elders are trying to give them maybe a little bit of seed money from the church budget here or there, and there's certainly time to pray, certainly time to advertise, and just make this a part of the culture and the life of the congregation. So this kind of care becomes normal.

Right.

That's what you want. You want the sort of stuff to be normal so you as a pastor have an opportunity to cultivate that in various ways.

So I love it that it's that simple. Right? Like it's it's this Ezra and Nehemiah sort of just preach the word. Yeah. Like, really?

Just let's just just preach the word and then drip the examples of the good works. Put put those things on regular drip in front of people, put those things on regular drip in our prayers, and those things we're going before the lord together for and and then just sit back and watch god begin to move among the people and and the lord will will inevitably raise those things up out of the congregation. And I think sometimes we get in our own way of of trying to be so, you know, so planned, so complicated, so complex, and and the truth is, honoring the word of God and being faithful to the word of God is the key.

Yeah. No. That's exactly right. Now, I mean, I'm sure some pastor listeners are gonna be thinking, well, listen. We we can't make the church into Red Cross habitat for humanity.

And that's true. You're a 100% right. I'm I'm with you. Right? The church's task, the the organized corporate institutional church's task is to make disciples.

Right.

But what are those disciples once made?

Right.

Those disciples once made are those who care for the poor, the struggling, and the vulnerable. Right?

Right.

So what am I doing as I make disciples to help make sure that part of my definition of disciple following Jesus includes this kind of care. So, you know, as pastors, we we need to be careful not to turn the church into some social organization as such, of course. You know, the the law school doesn't become the lawyer. The business school doesn't become the businessman. You gotta be the law school.

You gotta be the Mhmm. The business school. Nonetheless, I'm trying to raise up businessmen. I'm trying to raise up lawyers. Okay.

I'm trying to raise up those devoted to good works as a pastor.

Right.

How can I do that? Well, preaching, prayer, modeling, and so forth.

Yeah. Preaching the full counsel of God's word. And that's what our churches need to do. And if we preach the full counsel of the Lord, we trust God's guidance. Our churches are going to begin, our people are going to begin to follow the Lord.

And just like we started at the very beginning, all throughout Scripture, you see a call to care for the vulnerable, right, the poor, the alien, the stranger, the widow. So naturally, as the gospel transforms us, and as we make disciples, teaching the full counsel of God's word, the spirit illuminates that in there. And so just as we close, give a give an encouragement to pastors who might be listening, who some of them have gotten into this work because they had those members who said we have to be doing adoption of foster care work. Some of it may be because they they had a personal experience through adoption of foster care. How can you encourage these pastors to be true to God's word and to the the faithful calling of the pastor?

Yeah. Sure. I mean, the first thing I I guess I wanna say is most pastors, I think, already feel pretty overwhelmed with everything they have to do. I'll prepare the sermon. I got these hospital visits.

I got this marriage couple married couple who are just they hate each other. They want a divorce. I got this teenage kid is rebelling. And now you're telling me I gotta care about this too? It's like, you know, what do you I I remember when I had I had a I had a we had our 3rd child and somebody said, you know, having a 3rd child, it's like you're it's like you're treading water, holding 2 babies and somebody throws you another baby.

You know, I think I think I think pastors can feel that. So really, you wanna throw me another baby right now? I'm already dying. As I so the first word, I guess, I would offer to, you know, any brother pastors listening is like, yeah. I get it.

And and and, no, we're not trying to call you to do the impossible. The lord knows how many hours of the day he's given you. Yeah. Right? He's not he's not asking you to be all things to, I guess, in some ways, just go.

I thought you would never

maybe I shouldn't

have said that. Oh, there you go. Okay. He's not asking you to do all ministry to all people. That's a better way to say that.

I guess, my my encouragement would be, as as we've said, be appreciating the whole counsel of God and let the whole counsel of God shape and condition your own heart. Yeah. Delight yourself to the Lord, he'll give you the desires of the of your heart. That is to say he's gonna shape and condition our hearts. And since some some will say some ways, I just wanna start at the heart level.

Father, you you Yep. You don't need to be afraid of the word of God and letting it shape you. That's not gonna take you beyond, and here's another verse, beyond what you're able. Mhmm. So let the word of God shape your heart, including these passages that we've been talking about and see what you're desiring.

Yeah. You might find yourself desiring to care for the poor and the vulnerable more than you presently do, and I think you probably want that. I think

we all want that. Amen.

Right? So let's start with preaching to ourselves and prayer and just work out from there. And then number 2, I'm gonna say, look, you don't have to do everything in the life of the church. There's gonna be other people. That's the point of the body of Christ.

The hand cannot save, the foot, and I have no need to. Okay. So you don't gotta be the guy who does everything. Are there other people in your congregation who already show these kinds of interests? Maybe they're calling you or emailing you saying, pastor, why don't we do more of this?

Okay. Well, that you were a little annoyed by that email. Maybe open that email back up and think about ways you can encourage that person to help lead the congregation That's

right.

In some of these ways.

That's right.

You might have the resources already there in your church to help you in these works. Because we're we believe in the priesthood of all believers. Right?

That's right. That's right.

This means it doesn't have to be you, pastor. It could be some other people in the in the in the in the in the church. And so finally, I guess I would just say pray. Yeah. Pray that your church and my church and all of our churches would more and more be characterized by this kind of activity and love.

Amen. That's a good word. Jonathan Lehman, thank you. Thanks for joining us. Thanks for the way that you have, you've poured into us and shepherded us through your writing and through your work and we're we're incredibly appreciative to you, brother.

Great. Enjoy the time. Enjoy the conversation.

Yeah. Thank you

so much. Alright.

Thanks for listening to the Defender Podcast. If you enjoy making this podcast a part of your weekly routine, we'd love for you to take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review the Defender Podcast to make it easier for more people to find. For more information on how you and your church can partner with Lifeline, visit us at lifelinechild.org. If you want to connect with me, please visit herbynewell.com. Follow us at Lifeline on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter by searching for Lifeline Child.

You can email us directly at info at lifelinechild.org. Beloved, will you allow god to use the gospel to you to impact the life of a child? Please contact us because we are here to defend the fatherless. We'll see you again next week for the Defender podcast.