Welcome to the defender podcast, a resource to help mobilize and equip the body of Christ to manifest the gospel to orphans and vulnerable children. This podcast is a ministry of Lifeline Children Services, and I'm your host, Herbie Newell.

Welcome again to the Defender Podcast. This is Rick Morton, and today is Wednesday, April 24th 2024. And today is National Counseling Awareness Month, or I guess this month is National Counseling Awareness Month. And so, we've got the opportunity today to be able to, spend time with Angela Mains, who is our clinical director here and, is the senior director of counseling and, parent coaching. And so we're gonna we're gonna spend a little bit of time and talk about, just, you know, understanding a little bit more about family therapy and understand a little bit more about the world that God's called Angela into.

But before we get there, we're going to talk about, and we need to do a promo for Lifeline Counseling. And so, appropriately, with 42 years of experience serving children and families, and, you know, even having families of our own, we know the value of counseling. We also know the end goal of counseling isn't to fix a problem, but it's to help us to develop as healthier individuals and families. We live in a world that's marred by sin. We encounter trauma, loss, grief, difficulties, but one of the things we're blessed with is God has gifted, and skilled counselors to help us process those times, so that we can heal, so that we can help others and so that we can live for the utmost or to the utmost for, the glory of God.

We're really grateful to our counseling team here at Lifeline and for the ways that they serve. And, and I just want to say to you, if you would like to connect with our counseling team, they are, they're some of the finest folks that I know and are here to serve, to come alongside families like, you know, like my family. And, although we can't do that because of ethical guidelines. So I'm totally off the rails here and I'm making Angela laugh. But, anyway, but we'd love to connect with you.

Our team would love to talk and see if there's a way that they might be able to come alongside your family and help. You can visit our show notes for more details. Or if you would like to also to partner with us to to help more families, to be able to find a path toward healing and restoration, you can visit lifelinechild.org/donate, to learn more about becoming a monthly donor and supporting our counseling process or our counseling team. So Angela Mains joined our team in December of 2012. She holds a bachelor's degree in psychology and a minor in family science from Anderson University.

And she has a master's degree, in professional counseling from Liberty University. Angela works primarily with attachment and trauma in children and adolescents and adults, as well as helping people with anxiety, grief, depression, anger, and just marriage and parenting support. She's a fully certified Theraplay therapist That is like I feel like I was a tongue twister that I should have done before we started, but I didn't. But she has that as part of her toolbox as well as, trauma focused cognitive behavioral therapy. She is a trust based relational intervention practitioner.

She's certified in eye movement desensitization and reprocessing or EMDR, and is a certified Theraplay trainer and a prepare and enrich facilitator. Angela's also been blessed to train in corrective attachment therapy with Doctor. Terry Levy of the Evergreen Psychotherapy Center. Angela's passionate about attachment and is excited to work with families who welcomed adopted and foster children into their home with the hope that God will use her as a vessel of healing in their lives. But probably one of the best things I can say about Angela Maines is she's my friend and we get to work closely together, every day practically.

And so it's just

an incredible pleasure to have you and for us

to be able to have a incredible pleasure to have you and

for us to be able to have a conversation for for a few

minutes, Fran. Well, thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.

Thank you for having me.

So, let's just kinda start where start at the beginning. And we're in the midst of National Counseling Awareness Month. And and, you know, so if there are folks that are sitting out there and, and they're reluctant to, to think about counseling, about maybe adding counseling to, the ways that they're trying to help their family. What would you say to them?

I would say, you know, it's it's can be a scary step. Right? It takes a lot of vulnerability to ask for help and to let somebody speak and enter into that innermost parts of your world that you might be pretty ashamed of or not wanna share with someone, it can be really scary to take that step. But at the same time, like, it can be so rewarding and such a a blessing to people who do take that step. And one of the things that we believe so firmly around here is that connection.

God created us for connection, and connection heals. And so often that's the foundation of any kind of therapy is the relationship, the therapeutic relationship. Mhmm. And so being able to connect with somebody and reach out for that help and support, most people find it very worth it.

Yeah. Yeah. But it is a scary step. Right? It is.

You know? And and I think, sometimes not understanding the process, not understanding what, you know, what counseling really is, is is a big part of the fear. I think we have a lot of misconceptions. We were laughing even before, we recorded today about, you know, TV shows and some of the things that we see out there in the media about, you know, even about what therapy is. And it's not anything like what, you know, what the media depictions are.

And so, and I think, you know, honestly, for a lot of us that are in the the foster and adoptive world, I think there's a little bit of a misnomer

That we're kind of encouraged to think about counseling in in in terms of our kids. And we're kind of encouraged to think in terms of those adverse experiences that our that our kids have had or or those, you know, those things that are, you know, that have have really deeply affected them and that counseling is is the way to help our, you know, help unwind those things and help to, you know, begin to understand and and maybe seek, restoration or or reconciliation. I think what we don't hear enough is, that sometimes it's about us, and it's about what we're not able to do or be in being really available to our kids, because of things that are, you know, things that we're wrestling with. And so maybe just kind of expound on that a little bit about what, as a therapist, about the way you found yourself able to come alongside parents and and really help them in in the journey of parenting a child who comes from a hard place.

Yeah, absolutely. I mean, you touched on a lot there. I think big picture, there's lots of different types of counseling out there. And so specifically for you all that are are adoptive and foster families, what we know we hear all the time. You probably have heard this statement and if you haven't, I hope that it's helpful, but it's that you can't lead a child to a place of healing you yourself haven't gone.

So we can, you know, good old Karen Purvis helped us with that one. And so at the end of the day, like none of us grew up in perfect families. None of us had perfect parents. And so we've all got wounds of our childhood, to differing degrees. Right?

Like some big, some small, big t trauma, little t trauma. Yeah. But significant experiences or self doubt are things be that are a result of living in a fallen world. It's understandable and it's normal. So the the shame that the evil one tries to heap on us that keep us trapped is what exactly we're trying to help people overcome

Yeah.

In counseling. And that I think is just magnified when you're trying to parent a kid from a hard place because they're bringing all of their stuff and you've got your stuff. And honestly, you probably were doing pretty good until this child entered your home. Maybe you guys were able to, to function pretty well, but our kids are really good at kind of finding those cracks and widening them. And so what might have been holding together just fine before that kid came in might now be exposed and need some attention, right?

The work and the foundation. And at the end of the day, I think parents get really scared that we're gonna look at them with judgment for how they feel. Mhmm. And I promise we've heard it all before. And there's no shame.

Like, it makes sense. Like, people generally make sense when we take the time to really understand them. And so that's what we wanna do as counselors is just sit with and and hold, psychologically hold, not necessarily literally, but you as parents in the midst of the mess, in the midst of the brokenness, and and let you know you're not alone and that it's okay. Whatever you feel is okay. And we're gonna you're not alone in it.

We're gonna help you with it. We're gonna walk through it with you, so that you can help your child get to that place of healing.

And it does it does start with parents, and it's not because you as a parent aren't, like, doing something right or you aren't good enough or you aren't fill in the blank. It's because we know you have the biggest potential to be able to help your family.

Well, I think, you know, something we have, we've talked about in, there's a, I don't even want to call this, there's a there's a a parenting, paradigm. Would that be right? Connected families?

Yeah.

And and so we've, you know, we've we've partnered with, an organization called Connected Families. And one of the things that I love that, that they say in their, you know, their parenting training is that one of the first things that you need to consider when, especially when disciplining is, what's going on in you?

That's right.

Right? Mhmm. And and and the truth is that I think coming from their perspective and speaking as somebody who's who's done this, who's lived it, who is living it, I, you know, the little warning that's on the side of like aerosol cans, you know, contents under pressure.

Yes. Oh, yes.

Like, we're contents under pressure.

Yes.

And and the fact is that, that what's inside gets squeezed out. That's right. And and sometimes what gets squeezed out is really that that unsanctified in process, still not really looking like Jesus part of me.

And and that and to be honest with you, like, for most of us, that can be it can be humiliating. It can be, you know, defeating. But it also it also can be scary.

You know, to to find things in you that, you know, maybe you didn't even realize were there.

Yeah, it's like coming to face to face with the own depths of your own depravity.

Yeah, right. And so, but I think the, you know, the benefit of therapy is being able to talk to someone who's safe, who's not gonna judge you, who's there to help you, but also somebody who is gonna be completely, you know, private.

Absolutely.

Somebody that you can that you can share those things with, who's gonna who's gonna walk with you, who's gonna help you to take perspective when you find it hard to take perspective for yourself, who's gonna who's gonna talk to you about productive things that that you can can begin to do when sometimes you don't know what the next step is. And and really just kinda help you walk through those things and and and see that there's, you know, that there's hope on the other side. And so very much here at Lifeline, we see what we do in counseling as part of our discipleship journey. And what we do, although, you know, you're using therapeutic techniques like EMDR and and like DDP and all these things, all this alphabet soup that I quoted that you have all these impressive credentials in. That what that really means is is that, that we have a bunch of really reliable techniques that that help people to be able to, you know, see themselves and take perspective and understand and have the opportunity to work through those things.

But, but at the end of the day, it's it's really about helping you to to to know and understand and

and I don't know if this is a helpful thing for people to think about as they think about going to counseling. It's that there's this lovely term that we like to use as counselors. And this is fresh on my mind today just because had tons of conversations with the people I'm supervising this week about kind of our own stuff that comes up through therapy. And so that parallel process that happens, so everything that we're trying to help walk our our parents or our kids through, we have to do for ourselves. We have to to come to terms with our own depths of depravity and, admit to ourselves our own shortcomings and failings.

And and by doing that and talking about that with our own people, therapists or friends that are therapists, colleagues, we are free to better help and hold you and can really feel with because we've had to walk through it ourselves.

Yeah.

And so even as you sit in front of a therapist, whether they're an adoptive parent or not, everybody that is on our team has a heart and a passion and has sat with their own humanness and their own stuff. Yeah. And again, for the idea that iron is sharpening iron. We are in this together, know these by themselves, and we are using a lot of techniques that are helpful and are based in science, which we believe we can attribute science to Jesus.

Right.

But with that with that worldview, that Christian worldview and that lens of the gospel and meeting people wherever they are. I mean, I there are so many families that might hear that we're a Christian organization and be like, I don't they're they're gonna they're just gonna throw a scripture at me.

Yeah. And you know, the beautiful thing is we have a lot more tools in our tool belt and we can meet people where they're at and where

they're at

on their faith journey. Right. Because, you know, we are also those professional counselors that wanna respect where each individual is. And I've had I've I promise I've heard all of the full spectrum of where people are on their faith journey, the sin that they struggle with, that just in a lot of times, and Rick, you've really helped me with this over the years of seeing that, we're often dealing with, yes, our own sin, but also the sin of other people that we're feeling the effects of.

Right.

And that's true for us as individuals as well as our kids. And so that's the beauty that we get to sit in the mess with.

Yeah. Yeah. And and and in the midst of that mess, it is not just like that toolbox is not just filled with techniques, right, that work. But but it but it ultimately, it's grounded in the fact that we, you know, that we know that we have hope, that we know that we have an advocate, that we know, you know, all those things are true. And I think, you know, what I what I love, you know, just as as we're able to interact appropriately about what you do and and, you know, but but just the the notion that, part of what you're able to bring to families is is not just, a professionalism, but it's but it's a personal conviction that, that the Lord is real and you know, that the Holy Spirit is present and active.

And and you may be sitting in front of a client, quite frankly, who doesn't believe that.

That's right.

But it completely changes and shapes the way that that you see them and approach them and and about how how you see God relevant in the process. And, and I, I just, I love that. I love the fact that, that through counseling, you're really bringing the gospel to bear and bringing the fruit of the gospel to bear in in the lives of the folks that, you know, that you're working with. And so we want to see clients that are not, you know, not always walking with Jesus because we, you know, we feel like the process and and the encounter is is going to draw them closer, to really being able to see the authenticity of who Jesus is.

Absolutely. Yeah. So Hopefully, we can love people well wherever they are.

That's right. That's right. Well, so, you know, we talk about, and we kind of, from a conceptual perspective, we talk about, you know, nurturing and healing and growth. And, you know, those are terms that we kind of throw around all the time. But, but when we deal in, in the realm of attachment and trauma and, you know, other areas like anxiety and depression.

How do you actually facilitate someone, you know, being nurtured, finding healing, you know, taking steps of growth when, you know, when when they're kind of caught up in the midst of, just not really being able to see that for themselves?

Yeah. I mean, that's a big deep question that my my favorite my favorite answer to give, especially like turning, is like, it depends. Yeah. It's like my great non answer. That's right.

But it does. It depends. But like generally speaking, you know, we're using that that solid foundation of attachment theory, which I believe is grounded in who God's made us to be of we are all creative for connection and, you know, we'd love the word connect. Every every ministry I think we are attached to or affiliated with us connection in the name. But it's beautiful, right?

Because the connection can be healing. And so that's gonna look a little different if it's an adult coming in and it's 1 on 1 with a therapist versus parents bringing a child. You know, we love to approach everything from that family standpoint whether the family is present in the room or not.

So if it's a kid who's come home recently for adoption and we're trying to facilitate connection and bond, it's gonna start by a lot of work with parents. And and that sometimes is surprising because we are very much of the mindset that we are not gonna be able to fix your kid in an hour a week. Not that your kid even needs fixing.

Right.

Right? That that we want to facilitate and help you as the parent be able to be the one who is helping them and feel supported in knowing how and when to respond to certain behaviors. And that best vehicle to do that is gonna be through play. And so I think, sometimes that catches parents off guard because they're like, well, we need to talk about this and this behavior needs to change, But we're trying to create a right brained experience that repairs whatever that child missed out on. Yeah.

And so that playful connection is the way we do it and not through the power struggles that often ensue outside of the the therapy room.

You know, I we've said this before, and I know, our our friend, Annmar Hinton, who has been on the podcast many times and I've had the, you know, the privilege of interviewing. But we all work really closely together. But one of the things that, you know, I learned in seminary, through a a dear and wonderful friend, Doctor. Paula Stringer. Paula was a professor of childhood education at New Orleans Seminary where I prepped.

And Paula used to just remind us all the time that with children, play is their work.

That's right.

Right? Like, you know, they like, that's that's how kids are, you know, learning and experiencing the world. That's how neural connections are formed. That's how, like, all of the important things that that are that are about child development are are like they happen through the context of

play. Absolutely.

And so winter kids have not been able to play well, either because they haven't been shown to play, they haven't been taught to play, or they haven't had the freedom and the safety and the security to be able to play, then we've got to go back to that place. You know? And and I think in many times, you know, as a as an adoptive parent, we're so afraid of what's coming next. We don't want to go back. We like, our focus is we want to go forward.

Yeah. Because we're because we're scared of what's going to happen if we don't go forward. And and I think, you know, it's it's just it's an incredible paradox, you know, to think about that these very fundamental things that God has wired into us and and just made us for, that that really a lot of what you're doing is helping people just kinda get back to the basics and Yeah. And to step through things that that we honestly, like, we don't we don't intuitively think about taking those steps back. We're we're so, you know, just kind of dead set on on pressing forward and Absolutely.

Yeah. To to steal from like Bruce Perry and the whole idea of, the neuro sequential brain development. Like you have to to fill in the gaps. The brain is built from the bottom up. And so when they're to your point, like play is a child's work.

It's what helps develop their brain, like you said. So when they have missed out on those opportunities in order for them to go forward, that is the great paradox. They have to be able to experience what they missed out on. Yeah. And so that that does become pretty crucial.

And and that's just as important for us as adults too in a lot of ways that, again, parallel process. We we talk to I'm gonna steal from Paris Goodyear Brown and her idea of cascade of care. Yep. Right? Like I am providing for parents what they need to be providing for their kids.

Right? So it's a cascade of I wanna be pouring into them so that they can pour into their child. And so there's, it's not just about a kid. It's also making sure that we as adults have room for play, that we can experience and engage in that when needed, in order to help everybody in the situation heal.

Yep. Yep. And it's, you know, and I think I think too, I'll just add, like, one of the things that's probably not intuitive in all this is is learning how your children play.

Mhmm.

And that one of the crazy things in the midst of all this is that sometimes because of the things that our, that our kids have experienced and where they've come from and, and some of the things that we'll just like, we're, we're never going to be able to go back and, you know, backtrack through, that may play really differently. Mhmm. Their interest may be different. Their, you know, their mindset may be different. And part of

it is is learning how to I'm gonna say it this way, like learning how to be in rhythm with your child.

Yeah. Absolutely.

And and and like we're and and so I think, you know, one of the beautiful things that that, you know, you and and your colleagues are able to do is is to come alongside families and help them sort of recognize and acknowledge those places where they're they're struggling to be in rhythm.

Absolutely.

And and help them find that, you know, that that that rhythm.

That's right. I mean, as a play therapist, my goal is to create these what we would call moments of meeting. Yep. Those moments that are surprising that you both laugh because it's like you've connected on this heart level. Yep.

And it's, it's not necessarily something that's always planable, but that's what we try to do. Yeah. Right? Like, we're trying to predict and plan and facilitate that so that you do feel in rhythm, that you're feeling that attunement

Yep.

With what your child's going through and that you can read their body language and their expressions that may have been confusing, differently and more accurately to that place where you are feeling more connected.

Now you're gonna mess me up because I'm like, I'm gonna start crying in the middle of all this. Everybody knows I'm a crybaby. But like, but I think before I knew what the concept of attunement was, like one of the things that that you, you know, when when you're working this way and and when, like, you do, you find these moments where, like your heart, your spirit just kind of resonates with your child like a tuning fork.

Yes, exactly.

And it's just it's it's it's those it's those moments of connection. And, you know, and I don't want to be real hocus pocus and, you know, but but truly. Yeah. I think those are the things that that conventionally in parenting, those are the things that happen in infancy. Those are the things that happen when, you know, you're staring in each other's eyes and you're, you know, you're 10 inches apart and you're, you know, and and so Yeah,

you're laughing and your baby makes a funny noise and goos and giggles. And there's that certain serve and return where you feel connected.

100%. And and in those moments, we all know, anybody that's been in that circumstance knows the the sense of connection and the like the resonance that you feel.

That's right.

Well, that's what we're trying to

get to. Limbic resonance is what you just described. You know, you were using that term. You're so smart.

That's right.

Like, this is like what we were talking about before we got on the air. Like, I've watched enough shows. I can be a doctor.

But it's it's so true. And so when you as an adoptive parent, I mean, maybe you got your kid as an infant, but maybe you didn't. Yeah. And so that's really what we want to cultivate. And so therapy, especially with our kids, often looks different than people expect.

It's not always sitting on a couch and talking

And dealing with all the things and it's my mother's fault. Yes. All of those things kind of can come into play at times. And we do ask a lot of questions about our family of origin because it does impact TBR. But also, the goal is to facilitate these moments, which we don't like to say that that therapy can be like, when we do play therapy with kids, we don't wanna say it's gonna be fun because the reality is a lot of times we're dealing with things that aren't fun.

Yeah.

And sometimes facilitating these con connections and this intimacy is very uncomfortable. Yeah. And so it may not feel fun. Yeah. And and I think it's also surprising for parents what comes up in them as we're doing that.

Yeah.

And so our role and what makes us different than typical therapy or talk therapy is that we are here for both parent and child

And facilitating that and that whatever's coming up is okay.

That's awesome. So, you know, we've established that our, you know, our team really just wants to meet people where they are. And we have a variety of different sorts of tools. And we've talked a little bit about Theraplay and we could talk about the others, but we're not going to because, because we're not going to try to get into the weeds of, you know, all the technical things. But like, the fact is that there are a lot of different ways to approach, just helping us to get to those those points of of resonance.

Right? Like there there are a lot of different ways for us to dig into that. But like, maybe this is a weird question. Okay. So try to stick with me for a second.

But but you you take a variety of different approaches and and you just, like, you blend them together to try to create a solution for a child or for a family. Like, talk about what does that really mean? Like, how does that really work in terms of, like using the techniques together? Or like, what would an experience look like

For a family where, you know, where you're taking different approaches to be able to get to the to the desired end.

Yeah. I mean, it looks a few different ways. And so I'll just give a an example. We you know, you've heard the term EMDR. I think that's a nice hot button therapy approach that lots of people enjoy.

And so one thing that I love is where like, TheraPlay is very experiential, there's a great opportunity to blend. And, and I think that a lot of the approaches we're using have a similar enough theory base that there's more in common than there is different. So like with the airplane EMDR, it might mean occasionally we're adding in what this is a big word, bilateral simulation. And that just is a fancy way of saying, we're gonna do something that engages both sides of the body and brain. Yeah.

And so it could be your kid has a really great moment where they're feeling proud of themselves and we're like, you know what? Hey, let's take a second, we're just gonna tap

Yeah.

Right? And so that looks silly and might be like, this woman's crazy. Yeah. I really do think most of my clients think I'm a little crazy, and I'm okay with that. But that could be one way, or it might mean that when we've been doing this rhythm of play session and it's predictable for the child, we have a natural story time in it, that we begin to weave moments of their story into it with, again, bilateral simulation to help them be able to process their story in a way that brings that coherent narrative.

I'm gonna it's helping them make sense of their story. Yeah. And so we can use, again, it might look a little different with an adult, but a lot of our adults need the same thing. And so we might do something similar, but on a more mature level for for an adult that's there. When it's, you know, there's a big struggle, it's using things like dyadic developmental psychotherapy, like big words, to help facilitate conversation about the story.

Mhmm. But we I my primary modality is Theraply, so I'm gonna weave it in. That way where somebody else might have a primary modality of EMDR and they're weaving TheraPlay in. And one's not right or wrong. It's just different, but it's similar goals.

We want to help people make sense of their stories.

Mhmm.

And the reality is is our bodies are a big part of that.

Yeah. And

so we we want to build the connection. And Mara also talks a lot about integration.

Right.

Right? So we're doing similar goal in therapy. We wanna we wanna integrate both top down and right left hemisphere in the brain. And so we have to engage our bodies to be able to do that.

And so there are these things that that we're like, literally, you may be in the midst of doing something in play, or you may be talking through a part of a story. And like you said, you may stop and say, okay, let's tap our shoulders.

Yes.

And and we, you know, and and and it seems strange. Absolutely. But but the fact is that there are just things that we know about the way the brain works and and about how to create attentiveness in those moments that are that are helpful in in the play or in the things that we're doing. And and so that's, you know, that's the thing that I that sometimes I think it just it, you know, when you haven't been in those kinds of situations, it feels a little mysterious. Like, what is it they're really doing in that close quiet room?

You know, what is well, first of all, one of the things that's funny is our rooms aren't really all that quiet.

That's accurate.

And, you know, because because we're, you know, because we're getting physically active and because we're, you know, we're helping people to, you know, play together. But also, they're, you know, they're just kind of these pieces and parts of things where, you know, we may add something in in order to help the, you know, just help the brain kind of be at attention or help both both hemispheres of the brain be able to connect with a with a kid that's struggling for that to happen, or maybe even an adult that's struggling to happen.

That's right.

Absolutely. And and so, you know, at at the end, it's not always fun, and you said that. But but it's not it's not as hard as people think it is either.

Yeah. And I mean, obviously that depends because everybody's stories are a little different and some are more intense than others. But the scariest part sometimes is that first step. Yeah. And so that's, you know, our team wants to be here.

And I know even just the process, and I'd love to describe a little bit about our process just to help people know what to expect. But we wanna make it as simple as possible. So we've got a very simple form that's on our website that when you're interested for whether that's counseling or parent coaching, it's the same process or even bridge tutoring. I'll put in a little plug in there for for that. You fill out a form and one of our lovely, people will be in touch, and get some information.

And the way that we go about it and just to kinda demystify it is we want to start from the beginning. I know one concern, especially with the economy the way it is, is money and how are we gonna pay for it. So we just connect you with our person who wants to ask you some questions and figure out what is gonna be the best way to to help you pay for that.

Right.

For our adoptive and foster families, we have grant money about available. So we we also bill insurance. So, but sometimes that's not a possibility for people, and that's okay. Don't let money be the thing that stops you from reaching out.

That's right.

For any of those three services, there are, there are scholarships or grant money available. And so we'll start and try to connect you with the person that's gonna be able to help you and meet you where you're at in that moment. And then once that happens, you'll get connected with the therapist and they'll probably email or call to schedule the appointment. Yeah. So we, again, try to make it as quick and as painless as possible.

Sometimes it takes a second to figure out schedules, especially with kids. But we will work with you to figure out how we can make that work and we can provide school excuses because at the end of the day, a lot of times it does require a daytime appointment. So, we wanna make it simple. We wanna make it easy. And so there's those are the easiest ways to get involved.

Yeah. And

I know that's a really scary step.

Yep. Yep. But but the thing I can tell you with great confidence is is there aren't scary people on the other end of the phone.

That's right.

There there are a bunch of people that, you know, frankly, just love Jesus and love what they do and, you know, really value the opportunity to be able to walk with people and and to, you know, to really help them find, that, you know, that sense of, peace, that sense of, you know, of understanding, whatever, you know, whatever it is that, that the the Lord needs to accomplish and and we need to help in, in order to see that. Well, Angela, thanks. Thanks for, spending another podcast. I feel like we, you know, we do this several times a year. And so so hopefully, we're getting better at it.

Right? Like, but no, seriously. Just super thankful for you and and thankful for all you do. And, And just want to encourage the folks that are listening that, you know, if you think that, that family therapy might be able to be a part of the journey for you and your family, then reach out. Please check us out, lifelinechild.org.

You can find the intake forms there and we would love to begin a conversation with you. And we just want to say thanks. Thanks again for joining us on the Defender Podcast. Thank you to Angela for coming and being a part of today. And, and and we just wanna encourage you that, as, you know, as you continue to to walk through the journey, of your life with the Lord, that that we're mindful of, those vulnerable kids and vulnerable families and people around us, that that we're able to to share the the love and, and ultimately, share the the the assurance and the attachment that we find with the Lord through what Christ has done.

And so thanks again. We look forward to you joining us again for the Defender podcast. We'll be back here again next Wednesday, and we'll love to meet you here.

Thanks for listening to the Defender Podcast. If you enjoy making this podcast a part of your weekly routine, we'd love for you to take a moment to subscribe, rate, and review the Defender Podcast to make it easier for more people to find. For more information on how you and your church can partner with Lifeline, visit us at lifeline child.org. If you want to connect with me, please visit herbynewell.com. Follow us at Lifeline on Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter by searching for Lifeline Child.

You can email us directly at info at lifelinechild.org. Beloved, will you allow god to use the gospel to you to impact the life of a child? Please contact us because we are here to defend the fatherless. We'll see you again next week for the defender podcast.